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OLIVER GYARFAS, SR., al* 


V. 

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et al. 


Plaintiffs* First Request For Pr oduction 
and Inspection of Documents 


Responsive Documents from 
San Antonio file 89B-SA-38851 


{‘Su.in <3 c i fL ( \ 3 


excised copy 


A. 




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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


i 


TAPE #216 
4/13/93 


1:10 A.M. 


1:55 A.M. 


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(Tape #216) 

DAVID: -- mercy and truth, grace and 

truth comes by Jesus. Okay. So, when the lamb comes 
again, no doubt the subject of the seven seals is going 
to be the main topic of what is to be presented. 

JOHN- 4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And, so, the question is well, what 

are the seven seals? Well, then, I say to these men, I 
say, brethren, I know we don't judge any man after the 
flesh and I know that we only judge the truth of God. 
So, the first seal everybody knows is a man on a white 
horse . He's got a bow and a crown . Let me show you 
the seal, the first seal, the light of all the 
prophets, because that's the acid test. I cannot tell 
you from my theory, I have to show you, from 

Deuteronomy all the way to Malachi, where this first 

* 

seal- is plainly revealed. So, when I take you to 
Psalms 45 and I show you that that person in Psalms 45, 
the king, he has a bow and a crown and he used to ride 
prosperously because of truth. Then all of a sudden 
these teachers go, wow, Psalms 45 is the prophecy of 
the first seal. Then I take you to Psalms 1, 2, 3, 4, 

5 -- and I begin to unlock the whole mystery of this 
prophetic insight in regards to the first seal. Then 
when I take you to Revelation 19, where clearly it's 
revealed the marriage of the lamb, blessed are those 


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who are called to this marriage. We find in the 
judgment of God the question in the judgment is not: 
What did John do in his lifetime? Was you a good boy, 
John? I mean, this is not like Santa Claus checking 
his list, checking it twice, going to find out whether 
you're naughty or nice. The only question is, is who 
is willing to open this book. And the only answer is 
Christ. And what Christ comes to bring to you is not 
punishment, not judgment, but a truth, which is to set 
you free. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Now, we know the Lutherans wanted 

truth and they worked hard for it. They were 
persecuted for it, same as the, the Methodists and the 
Presbyrin (sic) and the Church of -- and the Baptists, 
and every denomination, every honest soul has always 
wanted to know the truth, right? Well, they never were 
shown the seven seals. But if Peter is correct, Peter 
says that there is to be grace which is to brought to 
the --be brought to the church at the last time in a 
revelation of Jesus Christ. And it's a beautiful 
truth. But do you know what's gotten me into trouble 
is, is that when I begin to open up these things it's 
so clear that these leading men and these ministers see 
it and they can't deny it. Okay? Now, what does that 
mean? Well, it means one of two things. 


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JOHN- 4 : It means you've got a difference of 

opinion with somebody. 

DAVID: Well, actually, remember, when I show 

it to them it's so clear that even John Cox would (sic) 
deny it. See? 

JOHN- 4: Not even Cox? 

DAVID: Not even Cox denied it. He agreed to 

me . 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: But he's not into religion. But at 

least he's wise enough to be able to say well, yeah, I 
can see what you're saying. Yeah, that's -- okay, 
okay, you're right, but that's what you believe. Okay, 
fine. That is what I believe. But he chooses not to 
-- it don't make no difference whether I was right or 
wrong. See, he has that right. He'll deal with God a 
different way. John will stand before God in the light 
of the Ten Commandment law, not in the light of the 
truth from Christ. You see what I'm saying? 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: A man doesn't want the truth to set 

him free. Christ says if you continue in my doctrine, 
you shall know the truth. The truth will set you free. 
He would rather stand in the light of the law, the Ten 
Commandments, and so your whole life will be reviewed 
and every wrong thing you've done will be marked up and 


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you'll receive a just recompense. But -- 

JOHN-4 : You get a choice? 

DAVID: Well, only while you're living. 

That's why 

JOHN -4 : I thought, I thought -- 

DAVID: -- that's why 

JOHN -4 : -- they had like two plans. You can 

have the A or B plan, you know. You can go with the 
Ten Commandments or you can go with the -- 

DAVID: Fine. 

JOHN-4: -- understanding of the seven seals 

program . 

DAVID: Well, and, now remember, it starts 

with understanding that Christ died for all of us. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And he forgave us, because we don't 

what^ we're doing. He says, Father, forgive them, for 
they don't know what they do. So, every man is under 
grace. But you've got to first accept Christ. Now, if 
you don't accept Christ, well, you know, there's laws 
in the world, you know. Just like if you run a stop 
sign you're going to pay the penalty, right? 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: If you beat your wife, you're going 

to pay the penalty. If you rob or steal, hey, the, the 
world has to have law. That's just the way it is. So, 


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also, the world hereafter has laws. Christ came to 
save us from the penalties of the laws of God and he 
came to be righteous so that we can look to his 
righteousness. So, when he says on the cross, Christ 
says Father, into thy hand I commit my spirit, there's 
something about Christ, something about his life, that 
we don't know until we come up hither and see in the 
right hand of God there's a book, and it will be 
revealed when there's time no longer. Okay. Well, 
what happened was is that in these meetings you see two 
classes of people. You see one group that stands up 
and says are you saying that you're Jesus Christ? You 
see? And I go wait a minute, I'm not saying that. I'm 
saying that if God sits on a throne and if he gave the 
book to the lamb and, clearly, as it is written so is 
it. No man in heaven nor on earth can open me to look 
thereon. And if only the lamb can, and when there's 
time no longer this truth is to be revealed on earth, 
and if the lamb is going to come with the reward, then 
the truth is the only salvation we have. And if I just 
showed you that Psalms 45 is the first seal, then the 
truth has come to you and we must follow the truth, 
because God sits on the throne. We cannot judge men 
sfter the sight of the flesh because no man has seen 
the face of Christ and Christ is the Word of God made 
flesh and everyone of us is to be the sons of God by 


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accepting God's truth. But, but are you saying you're 
Christ? I'm saying that if I can show you the seven 
seals, God has already declared that nobody but the 
lamb can reveal the seven seals. Now, some of the 
people are saying, hey, he's right, he's right. I want 
to listen to him. He's right. Listen to this man. 
Others are saying, this man's the devil. He's the 
anti-Christ. Well, the ones who are saying I'm right 
are saying I'm right because I showed them something 
right out of the book. 

JOHN-4: Well, David, who are you? 

DAVID: So, they want to know the rest of the 

seals. They want to know the rest of it. 

JOHN- 4 : But who are you? 

DAVID: Well, I'm a person, the person, who 

has revealed and taught clearly from all the prophets 
whati the mystery of God is of the seven seals. 

JOHN- 4 : Then you're just an individual who 

happened to read the Bible a little more closely than 
somebody else? 

DAVID: No, no, no, no, no, no. Remember, 

for the last 1,500 years the greatest scholars in the 
world have spent day and night. I mean, come on, there 
are certain people who translated the whole Bible. 

JOHN- 4: Maybe you lucked out. You know, 

it's like winning the lottery, you know. 


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DAVID: (Laughter.) Maybe there's a God in 

heaven who sits on a throne and maybe he fulfills his 
promise . 

JOHN- 4 : Urn- hum. Well, if you're Jesus 

Christ, I'd love to have your autograph. 

DAVID: Well, look, Jesus Cristos (phonetic) 

was the Greek name for Hashua (phonetic) . His name was 
Hashua, okay? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: But it doesn't make no difference who 

I am, really. What makes the difference is who are 
you. Are you a person that's honest? 

JOHN-4: I'm John-4. 

DAVID: John-4. Are you a John-4 that's 

honest at heart, that admits your -- 

JOHN-4: I'm John for -- 

j DAVID: -- and so- - 

JOHN- 4 : -- peace. 

DAVID: Okay. A peaceful John. 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: Well, blessed are the peacemakers for 

they shall inherit the earth. The Beatitudes. But 
here's the thing. 

JOHN- 4 : Well, I don't want to inherit 

anything. I just want to help you people out of this 
situation. 


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DAVID: Well, that's even good. I appreciate 

for that. But if it's only stated in singleness of 
heart, I mean, I'm saying that don't do it because 
you're being paid. Do it because you really want to 
see us- - 


JOHN- 4: David, I'm paid -- 

DAVID: -- safely 

JOHN -4 : -- I'm paid very little. 

DAVID: Come on, FBI makes good benefits I've 

heard. 


JOHN-4: Oh, yeah? Hey, it's eroded quite a 

bit. You haven't stayed up with that, you know? 

DAVID: Well, I -- 

JOHN -4 : You know? 

DAVID: -- have to admit that you got me 


there. 

* 

JOHN- 4 : None of us are very fat, okay? 

DAVID: Okay. 

JOHN-4: But that's neither here nor there. 

Let's talk about your situation. 

DAVID: So, you see, so, then what happens is 

that these churches begin to lose people . People come 
out and say hey, wait a minute. The guy just made a 
point. It's irrefutable. And they go, all right, 
look, we don't know who you are, but all right, here's 
the challenge. Show us the seals. And there's a 


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split. And my purpose is that I have to show them, 
don't I? I have to present to their mind and to their 
intelligence and to their open-mindedness clearly what 
has been spoken by the prophets in the light of these 
seals. And my position is explained. Okay. So, then, 
I get a following, don't I? But those who are against 
this are against this because of one reason, John. You 
see, it says in Revelation that Babylon -- this 
confusion of religion, that's where Babylon is. 
Everyone's talking about God. 

JOHN-4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: But there's only one Revelation of 

Jesus Christ. John says to be revealed, and that's the 
seven seals. The subjects are very clearly presented 
in the book of Revelation. And it doesn't cost a dime, 
not one penny, just like Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John 

t 

didn't cost a dime when they were given it. But here's 
the key: You see, religion has become very lucrative. 

Multibillions every year are spent in the name of 
religion. 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah. I agree with you 100 percent. 

DAVID: Now, when Rome began to fall apart by 
the nomadic kingdoms, according to the prophet Daniel, 
Rome began to see how that the Christian church was 
communal, just like Acts 1 and 2 tells you. When they 
received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they sold all 


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they had, disbursed among themselves and the poor, and 
they shared everything alike. Now, I know that sounds 
like a cult and everything, but that's what the 
scripture said they did. Okay. When Rome saw how that 
men would give every and all things for the name of 
religion, that's when men of learning and education 
said hey, let's incorporate Christianity into our 
political reforms, and the making of what was known as 
religio-political Rome began to develop. Now, 
Thessalonians, Paul tried to warn against this. So, 
the church and state alliance was developed to where 
finally Rome took on a religious political system which 
dealt with an earthly sanctuary, priests, knowledge. 
But, of course, you know what they failed to reveal, 
right? They failed to reveal the seven seals. And 

they began to teach doctrines that were according to 

* 

theiy own devising, bits and parts of what they saw 
scriptures to teach. They began to terrify men of 
pending judgments and hellfire and damnation, and men 
were required to pay heavy penances, heavy offerings, 
heavy tithes, and that -- and, and, and -- well, like 
St. Peters Church and everything, you know, it became 
multi-- well, like what can I say? You know what I'm 
talking about. 

JOHN- 4 : Urn -hum. 


DAVID: And the Lutherans likewise did the 


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same thing and the Presbyterians and -- and not -- 
don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Jerry Falwell 
and Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, and, and Billy Graham 
are any worse than anybody else is in the world. I'm 
saying these men probably don't know what they're doing 
and they need to be forgiven. That's what I'm saying. 

JOHN-4: Urn-hum. 

DAVID: I'm saying that, hey, Christ died. 

Forgive them. Father, they know (sic) what they do. If 
you're, if you're born in a world where your father's a 
Baptist minister, he lives off the Baptist tithe and 
offering, doesn't he? And he's got a nice home and a 
nice car and the IRS is saying hey, where you getting 
all this money? 

JOHN-4: Well, so-- some parishes, don't have 

a pot to pee in, you know? 

* 

-■ DAVID: Exactly. So, that goes to prove that 

just because a person is a Roman Catholic doesn't mean 
that they're a devil, because there have been more 
priests who have claimed poverty and have went out and 
done good in the name of Christ than just about anybody 
else. So, you can't judge any of these denominations 
and say, well, the pigs say to the anti-Christ, and 
Lutheran, he's the true -- no, no, no, no. No. See, 
anti-Christ is anything that goes against the truth 
that is seen. 


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JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: Christ say6 if you don't know the 

truth, you can't be judged by it. 

JOHN- 4 : Do, do you have a cult? 

DAVID: Do I, do I have a cult? You mean, a 

bunch of blackbirds? 

JOHN-4: No, cult. You mentioned the word 

"cult . " 


that . 


DAVID: Well, in fact, a cult -- we're called 


JOHN-4: Do you take offense at that? 

DAVID: No, because, like I say, the thing of 

it is is that these people that are here -- I 
originally went and canvassed colleges, theological 
institutions, you know, the hierarchy. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

i DAVID: The, the, the, the, the educated 

minds. You know, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll find 
out when the people come out and everything that you're 
not dealing with a bunch of, of illiterate people. 
You're dealing with people who have -- some have 
degrees, masters degrees, in theology. 

JOHN-4: Now, when am I going to discover 

that truth? 


DAVID: Well, hopefully soon. 

JOHN- 4 : Well, I, I'm with you there. You 


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know. 

DAVID: But, but here's the thing. Now, for 

instance, like when, when Brad was sent out and Kevin 
was sent out, you know, these two people, we do have 
some here that are people that we met out in the 
streets . 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: People that were turned off to 

religion, people that were -- you know. And, like I 
say, in the streets I'm a different person than I am 
when I'm dealing with, you know, high theological 
minds. In the street it's like, you know, hey man, 
well, you know, look, God sits on the throne. 
Revelation said God's on the throne. He gave the book 
of the lamb and the seven seals. You know, and, look 
(indiscernible) is supposed to be revealed. Look, we 
knov| it's the last days. Let me show you some of the 
seals. The guys says, well, hey, sure. And he begins 
to learn the seals. And, hey, it's true and, hey, 
where did you learn this stuff at, Dave? You know, I 
go on where, where does it say I learned it. He says 
no man but the lamb, right? They go, maybe you're 
trying to tell me you're Christ or something? No, 
don't worry about who I am, but just look what the 
scriptures says. 


JOHN-4 : Are you the lone ranger? 


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(Laughter.) That's what they say, right? 

DAVID: Well, it's like this, I'm not 

supposed to be alone. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: There's one God, one book -- 

JOHN- 4 : Do you know what some people think 

you are? 

DAVID: What's that? 

JOHN-4: The wizard of Oz. 

DAVID: They say I'm a brainwasher. 

JOHN-4: Well, I don't know if you're a 

brainwasher. Did you read the wizard of Oz? 

DAVID: Well, I, I've -- I'm -- I was raised 

in a society where we saw it on TV a lot . 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. Do you ever fear that 

someone will look behind the curtain? 

r 

* DAVID: Absolutely not. I wish they would. 

JOHN-4: Well, you know, if you, if you don't 

come out and present yourself in public, people are 
going to really think you're the wizard of Oz. 

DAVID: Well, that even, that even -- see, 

one thing that, that makes this work is when the -- was 
when the initial shock dies down. Because what happens 
is, is, is God has never worked in the New Testament 
with the initial shock. Remember, it was after the 
crucifixion of Christ and after he ascended into heaven 


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m . • 

that the initial shock was to come after the 


sensationalism. 

reputation. 

Remember, Christ made himself of no 

JOHN- 4 ; 

: Um-hum. 

DAVID: 

Now, I worked, I worked very 


secretively and very cautiously throughout my journeys 
across this country and Europe and in Australia. Like 
I say, the truth is the -- 

JOHN- 4: Where do you get the bread to travel 
like that? I envy you. 


DAVID: 

Bread to travel? 

JOHN -4 : 

Um-hum. 

DAVID: 

Such as $1,300 round trip between 


here and Australia and back? 


JOHN- 4 : 

Really? That's it? 

DAVID : 

* 

Well, that's it. Like I say, I don't 


sta^ in fancy motels. And, and, as a matter of fact 
(indiscernible) -- 


JOHN- 4 : 

Hey, nei-- neither do I. 

DAVID : 

I, I travelled on a motorcycle. 

JOHN- 4: 

Uh-huh. 

DAVID : 

I went, I went one time eight times 


between here and California on a motorcycle and, and, 
and, and on one season between spring and, and, and the 
beginning of winter. 


JOHN-4: You ought to write one of those 


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travel books. You know, how to see Europe on 50 bucks 
or something, you know? 

DAVID: You sleep on, on picnic park tables. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. Okay. It's a no-frills 

tour, then? 

DAVID: Well, if, if you like the excitement 

of the wind in your face. 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. I do. 

DAVID: You see -- 

JOHN-4: I don't like the bugs in my eyes, 

though . 

DAVID: I'll be honest with you. Okay? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: So, when the -- when, when the 

message started, a lot of people that, that came into 
the message naturally wanted to support the message, 
righ|t? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Unlike any other denomination, I've 

never taken in part of any salary or income from any of 
that. You'll find when you, when you, when you check 
my, my car, that, that I built -- see, I don't drive a 
new car. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: You see? 

JOHN-4: Hey, very few people I know drive 


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new cars. Not in this -- 


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DAVID: Well -- 

JOHN-4: -- business. 

DAVID: -- a lot of people you know do. 

JOHN-4: I, I don't know them socially. 

Okay? 


DAVID : Come on . 

JOHN-4: I can name them, all right? 

DAVID: John- 4. 

JOHN- 4 : No, they're -- no, they're not peers 

of mine, okay? (Laughter.) Okay. The single guys, 
all right, a few of the single guys I know have new 
cars. They've got to cop out. But I just bought a 
used car. 


DAVID: What kind was it? 

JOHN-4: It's a Toyota. I hate to say 

* 

that - - 

DAVID : You ' re not , you ' re not - - 
JOHN-4: -- because Buy American 

DAVID : -- being (indiscernible) . 

JOHN-4: I'm serious. It was a Toyota. You 

know. 

DAVID: Well, I, I build my own cars from 

ground up. And, and people like Paul Fatta and stuff 
like that, people, they come in and, like I say, if 
they want to help support the work, they have to be in 


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the message. I have turned away hundreds and hundreds 
and hundreds and hundreds of, hundreds of thousands of 
dollars from people that wanted to support the message. 
You see, you cannot support the message by money. Man 
has a mind and man has an ability to relate what's in 
his mind to other men. So, the ceiling of the 144,000 
is something that's done by a truth being revealed, and 
it says they followed the lamb wherever he goes . Okay? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: It's a reformation and a reform that 

is to turn the world upside down. It's a truth, 
lighter than any truth that man has ever received, and 
yet the miracle of it is is that it's right there in 
your Bible. 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: It's not a question of translation. 

* 

Because you may mistranslate a word here and there or a 
paragraph, but you cannot translate the whole tenor of 
scripture . 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: It's translated. 

JOHN- 4: Well, well, if, if God wanted people 

to see the -- you know, what the bestsel-- they -- you 
know, the Bible's the bestseller, you know, of any book 
ever published or written. 

DAVID: That's why it's done this way. 


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because 


JOHN -4 : So -- 

DAVID: -- everybody has one today. 

JOHN- 4 : -- why doesn't God just say hey, you 

know, hit you on top of the head and say check out 
Chapter so-and-so, you know? I mean, why doesn't, why 
doesn't that happen? 

DAVID: Well, it has. It has. But here's 

the -- here's, here's the thing. We also have a power 
of evil working against the truth, but here's the 
thing. Today, unlike 2,000 years ago, 2,000 years ago 
the general public did not have Bibles. They got all 
their information from the, from the pharisees -- 

JOHN- 4 : Urn- hum. 

DAVID: -- which would give them pieces and 

parts and their interpretation. 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 


i 

DAVID: But we have been privileged, because 

of the appointment of time, for everybody today has -- 
to have a well-intacted (sic) version of the 
scriptures . 


JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Everyone '8 got one. 

JOHN-4: When, when did this revelation come 


to you, Dave? 


DAVID: Well, it, it, it's something that 


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began ever since I was born, but it actually -- the 

full force of it came when I was in Israel in 1985. 

That's when everything, that's when everything was -- 
JOHN-4: Is, is it like the lights go on or, 

or does it come to you by degrees or layers or -- is 
it, is it shazaam, or what? 

DAVID: It's, it's a -- it's, it's far 

greater than a shazaam. Like I say, you know, it's, 
it's not so much what happened to me in 1985 that's 
really important, because that's, that's, that's my 
story, which I don't want to get into that until a 
person is established in the seals, because otherwise, 

you know, I know you, I know you -- you probably think 

traditionally that God sits on a cloud and he's got a 
long beard and -- but, but I have a completely 
different understanding. You know, as you look out 

t 

intc^ the stars, you've got to realize -- 

JOHN- 4: What does -- you know, do you have 

any opinion on what God looks like? 

DAVID: Well, I'm -- sure, I've got an 

opinion . 

JOHN-4: What do you think? 

DAVID: Well, I can tell you one thing, 

there's not a blemish. I can tell you another thing. 
He's flesh. I could tell you another thing, that 
there's a, a theory in man's mind is called Shangri-La. 


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It's called the searching out and finding the works of 
all knowledge and truth. And I can tell you there's a 
lot of stars in the universe. And I can tell you 
beyond Orion there's a place where people like us and 
yet unlike us consist by principles that are as 
harmonious as the light rays of light, as the audio 
waves of sound, and their law is kept out of a 
principle of something that's established forever. The 
fountain of life is with them. They, they travel in 
ways and means to where no pollution. Everything works 
together like a, like a finely fit watch. And the 
incubation of this process is called earth. And 
there's a reason for it. And that's why in the book of 
Genesis it, it's -- one thing that I present to my more 
advanced students, which I'll present to you because 
I'm sure you'll appreciate this, and that is that 
sometimes people look at the Bible with one eye closed. 
Okay. God made heaven and earth. That's true. But it 
doesn't say how, right? It says that God made man, 
male and female, after their image, after their 
likeness, and that's true. I mean, there's no better 
ideal than the female, is there? But 

JOHN -4 : I can't think of one off the top of 

my head, Dave. 

DAVID: Right. It was God's wisdom that did 

it. And then what happens is that Adam and Eve sinned 


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and they became segregated. They began to realize they 
were two - - 

JOHN-4: That was the, the thing with the 

apple, right? 

DAVID: Well, it wasn't an apple. It was a 

fruit . 

JOHN- 4: Oh. 

DAVID: It doesn't say apple. 

JOHN- 4 : Okay. I think the American apple 

growers started that . 

DAVID: Exactly. It was a promotional thing, 

I imagine . 

JOHN-4: Okay. It was a snake in the apple. 

Okay. Go ahead. I don't know. (Laughter.) 

DAVID: (Laughter.) It's got a southern 

theme , anyway . But, but the thing that, that I am to 
brii^g to the attention of people is the statement that 
very few people realize, and that is God told Adam and 
Eve to replenish and remultiply the earth, which means 
that there was something here before. 

JOHN - 4 : Urn- hum . 

DAVID: And the next thing I'm to present to 

people is the fact that after Adam and Eve sinned, 
behold he-- God said, behold, man has become as one of 
us, knowing good and evil. And I'm here to tell you 
and I'm here to show you from the prophecies that, you 


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know, God can forgive sinners because things have not 
always been perfect in the creation of God or in the 
beginnings of creation. 

JOHN- 4 : You know, more people have been 

killed in the name of religion. 

DAVID: Oh, yeah. Exactly. 

JOHN- 4 : Crusades and, you know, differences 

of opinion. 

DAVID: The, the zealots have always been. 

But the thing of it is is that is God saying in Genesis 
that God knows something about sin that -- because man 
has sinned man's become equal to God and that maybe God 
and man are to both learn a lesson, that once learned 
it will never be repeated again? It's kind of like in 
the parable of the prodigal son. You know, fatherhood 
forces, us into a maturity that adolescence forbids us 
to walk in. 

i 

JOHN- 4: Hmm. 

DAVID: But the father, who finally has to 

form himself into a pattern of society and existence, 
gets up in the morning and drinks his coffee and, and 
smokes his cigarette and eats his breakfast and kisses 
his wife and goes to work and gets his paycheck and 
comes home and by his labor he enjoys the medium 
freedom that he is afforded by society. He's got to 
follow the principles. And then he's able to have 


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offspring and he's able to create an existence for the 
children to play with toys and play in the backyard 
and, and be frivolic and foolish and he corrects them 
according to his own wisdom and tries to, to, to help 
them to grow into their responsibility. They're given 
school and the school tries to teach them, and, of 
course, there's always the wicked influences, which 
usually have more sway over the sun than the principles 
of wisdom. So, finally, Christ gives a parable of a 
father who had two sons . 

JOHN - 4 : Um- hum . 

DAVID: And one son came to the age to where 

the grass is greener on the other side of the fence and 
freedom was more easily available outside the 
jurisdiction of his father. So, he says father, give 
me my inheritance that I may go and, and, and live my 
own 'life. Now, the father was wise, so -- 

i 

JOHN-4: He wanted to boogie, right? 

DAVID: Yeah, he wanted to boogie. You know. 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: He didn't want to be under the 

jurisdiction anymore. 

JOHN- 4: yeah. 

DAVID: So, he took his part of the 

inheritance and he went off, and the Bible says Christ 
says that he lived riotous living and spent his money 


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with harlots, you know, and had his fun with his 
friends. And when the money was gone, after he spent 
up the money that his father had worked for and put 
aside for his well-being, his friends left. And he had 
to get a job and his job was feeding pigs. He became 
so impoverished that he began to desire to eat the food 
the pigs were eating. And, finally, he came to his 
sense and he says, man, in my father's house my 
servants --my father's servants eat better than I eat. 
I will go back to my father and I will say to my 
father, father, I have sinned against thee and against 
heaven and I'm not worthy to be called thy son. Please 
hire me as a hired servant and, you know, let me work 
for you. Well, the parable says that when the son 
finally came to his senses by this terrible experience 
of reality, that as he was walking a long distance away 
off.'jthe father saw him coming, which no doubt the 
father was watching for him. The father did this 
knowing what it was going to take to snap this boy out, 
if he could ever be snapped out. So, it says when the 
father saw him a long ways off, the father ran out to 
meet him and hugged him and kissed him. And the son 
says father, I'm not --he didn't even get to be able 
to say his whole sentence. The father called the 
servants and called the brother and saying, kill the 
fatted calf and bring a new robe and set it upon him in 


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t 


a ring, for my son is returned. He was dead and, lo, 
now he's alive again. You know, and it was a big 
party. Well, when the elder son came -- 

JOHN-4: He says, wait, I've been a good guy 

all this time, worked my butt off -- 
DAVID: Yeah. 

JOHN-4 : This shithead comes home and you 

give him a party. 

DAVID: Yeah. And the father says, the 

father says, son, all that I have is yours. When I'm 

dead, when I'm gone, you're going to get everything. 

But your brother was out and he was dead. He had 

nothing. You know, and now he's come to his senses. 

Now he's alive. It's necessary that we celebrate him 

coming to his senses, you know. Learning a lesson is 

the whole key to redemption. True religion is 

education, true education. It's just like in our world 
* 

today. A person, when he becomes a criminal, all of a 
sudden all these things are available, rehabilitation. 
You know, we would like to see the thief, the murderer, 
the rapist, we would like to see them re-- resaved, 
rehabilitated, rebrought back in to the norm of 
society. This is the hope and desire of many people 
who have the sympathy for those who err, who cause 
chaos to society. But a lot of times, you know, we 
don't realize that, that society in itself may be the 


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cause of a lot of these people to become the way they 
are. Well, the whole key is, is that this is a parable 
about God. God is not in heaven wanting to, to destroy 
us and kill us and punish us like some would wish us to 
think . 


JOHN- 4 : How do you explain, you know, 

hurricanes and tornadoes and things? 

DAVID: Well, Matthew 24. Christ tells the 

disciples, his disciples, that there will become 
disasters and famines and earthquake in diverse places. 
Let not your hearts be troubled. 

JOHN-4: Well, what's the reason for that? 

DAVID: Well, if it was not for the natural 

catastrophes, if everything was Honolulu, Hawaii, who 
would ever think about dying? Who would ever think 
about the reason -- 


' JOHN- 4 : Don't you think -- 

i 

DAVID: -- for living? 

JOHN-4: -- anybody, anybody who just lost 

their relative in a car wreck would think about it 
probably . 

DAVID: Yeah, but -- exactly. Now, the thing 

of it is, what happens to us after we die? That's the 
whole reason why Christ came, to reveal to men that 
there is life after death. 


JOHN - 4 : Um- hum . 


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DAVID: Just as we came through the womb, 

that the waters were -- 

JOHN-4: I still don't understand why we have 

hurricanes and tornadoes and things. 

DAVID: Well, because the sins of man. You 

see, in the natural course of the flood, the earth was 
tilted. Now, here I am getting into something to where 
you don't know if I have the credentials to even say 
these things. But it's a known fact -- let's just deal 
from the scientific point of view, that -- for 
instance, any time that you cut down thousands of acres 
of timber, you change the geographic structure of 
nature, don't you? 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: And the way our earth is, the way our 

moon is, the way our gravitational pull of the ocean 
is, ^the moisture content, the precipitation of, of, of, 
of, of force and all that have a large part to play in 
regards to how our, our, our whole system, geographic 
system, works in regards to rainfall, precipitation, 
and things -- 

JOHN- 4: Well, you're alluding to -- 

DAVID: -- like that. 

JOHN-4: -- natural phenomenon. 

DAVID: Okay. So, what happens is, is that 

by turning away, according to Isaiah 24, turning away 


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of God's laws, breaking his ordinances, not allowing 
the agricultural laws to be kept, man has turned his 
world into a place that has a cat-- a catastrophic 
influence on itself to cause itself to die. It's just 
like, it's just like if you don't have a proper balance 
in, in our air content. Pollution. 


imbalances. It's just like if you eat junk food all 
the time. And, oh, in high school when you're young 
and vibrant, sure. You know, the body is a beautiful 
mechanism of God, and while you're in the womb the 
body, the genetics, will always bring forth from your 
mother the most highest qualities of nutrients to 
provide for the child every possible advantage it can. 


JOHN- 4 : It's the mother that takes in the 

right stuff? 

DAVID: Exactly. And then if she doesn't, it 
still protects the child to the best of its ability. 

But the thing of it is this. When the child grows up, 
we start filling it full of formula and we start 
filling it full of chemicals and Coca-Cola and soft 
drinks and candy bars and this -- 


JOHN- 4 : Like the ozone layer. 


DAVID: Exactly. 


JOHN-4: The pollution. 

DAVID: And which is going to cause greater 


JOHN-4: Twinkies. 


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DAVID: -- and that. 

JOHN-4 : Twinkies . 

DAVID : Twinkies . 

JOHN-4: Hey, air-- I've got to be honest 

there. Right now I've got to have a Twinkie. I'm not 
-- and I'm not being facetious. 

DAVID: Oh, go ahead. 

JOHN-4: You know, I'm not -- I don't live on 

twinkies but, you know -- 


DAVID: Well -- 

JOHN-4: I was -- I, I'm a backslider 


sometimes . 


DAVID: Well, that's fine. I'm -- 

JOHN- 4 : And a pizza. 

DAVID: -- I'm not your judge when it comes 


to that. 

j JOHN-4: And a pizza every now and then. Are 

you a vegetarian, Dave? 


DAVID: No. We're not vegetarian. 

JOHN- 4: Okay. 

DAVID: You know, there's, there's, there's a 

reason for that too, which I get into a lot of trouble 
for presenting that. But, anyway, the point of it is 
is that what we sow we're going to reap. And when a 
person fills their body with these chemicals, then the 
body becomes these chemicals. And when these chemicals 


32 



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become highly ingested into the system, we begin to 
find a chemical reaction, this chemical reaction. Have 
you ever taken, you know, chemistry in school? You put 
certain chemicals together and plshh (noise) -- you can 
get -- 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: -- your nose, nosehair burned out. 

JOHN- 4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Well, the same as -- people are 

saying to themselves today well, what's this 
spontaneous combustion? How come Joe was here 
yesterday and no-- then today I come back and he's just 
in a bunch of ashes on the floor? 

JOHN- 4 : (Laughter.) Yeah. 

DAVID: Well, you see, this stuff is one of 

the signs too, which is the, the travail of the earth. 
We cannot get away with eating -- you know, let's face 
the facts. I mean, you know, a box of breakfast cereal 
-- come off of it. You know, God, God made wheat. 

And, and the closest -- closer it is to God's nature, 
the better it is for us. Right? 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. Can you recommend a brand? 

DAVID: (Laughter.) 

JOHN-4: I'm serious. Like Shredded Wheat, 

okay? 


DAVID : Granola . 


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JOHN-4: I love the stuff. Granola is -- eh 

-- you know, Shredded Wheat is, is really great, I 
think. And I don't know if there's all a bunch of crap 
in there or not. It -- 

DAVID: It's probably fortified with all 

kinds of s-- but, fine. It's -- you know, there's more 
to it than just meat and drink. I mean, you know, it's 
a miracle of God that we even live by what we're given 
by the merchants of the earth. The point I'm making is 

JOHN- 4: Man cannot live by bread alone. 

DAVID: But every word that proceeds out of 

the mouth of God. Exactly. And God has promised grace 
and God has promised mercy upon those who have not the 
knowledge or the truth. Look, all you can go by the -- 
is the box. When you, when you, when you go to the 
stofe and you see Captain Crunch and it says fortified 

JOHN- 4: I wouldn't 

DAVID: -- With -- 

JOHN-4: No, I wouldn't go near Captain 

Crunch. I just -- 

DAVID: Well, but your kids might scream for 

it. 


JOHN- 4 : I wouldn't let them have it. 

DAVID: Well, okay. Well, that's your 


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parental -- you know, your parental right. But they 
might sneak it from your next-door neighbors. Or 
Choc-- or Count Chocula or all those things. 

JOHN-4: (Laughter.) What did you use that 

one -- oh, oh, oh -- (laughter). No, that one's 
definitely out. 

DAVID: Let's see. Some Fruit Loops. No -- 
anyway -- but the point of it is is that you'll notice 
that the merchants of the earth, it says in Revelation, 
by their sorceries all nations were deceived. Now, 
here you are. You're going to spend $2, $3, $4 for a 
box of eight or eleven ounces of highly refined, highly 
processed wheat and sugar, 80 percent sugar. And you 
know cotton candy. You can take a little sugar, and 
you know how big cotton candy can be -- 

JOHN-4: Oh, yeah. 

« 

j DAVID: -- puffed up. 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: So, you know, once I was a, I was a 

kid and I, and I sat down, and I got in trouble because 
I ate a whole box of breakfast cereal in one eating. 

JOHN - 4 : Urn- hum . 

DAVID: Well, because there's no ga-- in 

fact, it's, it's designed by highly sophisticated 
processes to not only appease to the eyes but to the 
senses, to the desires of part of a fortified 


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breakfast. Yeah, well, they tell you to go ahead and 
eat your fruit and everything else you normally eat too 
and have a bowl of cereal, which -- 

JOHN-4: Yeah. 

DAVID: -- the cereal in itself is nothing. 

There's, there's -- it would -- you -- sure, they want 
you to eat it all . They want you to be addicted to it 
so you'll keep buying more of it. The same as Coca- 
cola, the, the real thing. Pepsi. Well, the caffeine, 
you get an addiction, you get a, you get a boost from 
it . You know? 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: And it's just, it's just, it's just 

-- hey, people are in bondage, in total bondage. Okay. 
Well, what's God going to do about it? Well, the 
merchants -- there's something we're warned about. But 

f 

there's also another merchandise which is far more 
serious than the merchandise and the things that we 
eat, and that is there's a religion that's a product. 
And Babylon is called the great harlot. You know, a 
harlot promises you affection, right? A harlot 
promises -- 

JOHN- 4: For a price. 

DAVID: -- you love for a night, right? 

JOHN-4: For a price. 

DAVID: Yeah. But, of course, the thing with 


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the harlot is is that once you pay for it you never get 
it. You're left empty. There's more, there's more to 
love than just the act of sex. There's more to love 
than just the act of carnality. And the harlot leaves 
you with nothing, just like the food. So, Christ 
begins to tell us, you know -- 

JOHN-4: Some of them, some of them leave you 

with something you've got to go see the doctor for. 

DAVID: Well, that could be so too. 

JOHN- 4 : (Laughter . ) 

DAVID: God does a lot of things -- 

JOHN- 4 : So, you can say it is -- in, in 

effect, there's your receipt for sinning, you know? 

DAVID: Exactly. 

JOHN- 4: You know. 

DAVID: But there's a religion, there's a 

* 

religion too, that it has a beautiful building -- you 
know, a harlot, she puts on makeup. She sings a pretty 
song. You know, she does a pretty wild dance, you 
know. Everything feminine is promoted therein and 
highly exaggerated. So, like -- so, like a religion, 
you've got stained glass windows. You've got beautiful 
carpet, air conditioning. You've got a nice organ 
music. You know, you've got, you've got the whole 
display that totally tantalizes the senses. Peter says 
that they will allure to the lust of the flesh, you 


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know. You can't go by your senses in religion. You 
can't, you can't judge your own heart. You've got to 
learn what truth is. 

JOHN-4 : Do you like organ music? 

DAVID: In certain songs, yes, I do. 

JOHN-4: Well, you know, I d-- I detest 

church organ music. 

DAVID: (Laughter.) 

JOHN-4: I absolutely hate it. I -- 

DAVID: It depends on if they're using modern 

organ music. I mean, you know -- 

JOHN-4: Yeah. But -- 

DAVID: But yeah, the old -- good old -- 

where the old lady sings -- 

JOHN-4: Organ -- yeah. 

DAVID: (High singing.) 

i JOHN-4: Organ solos -- I've got orders at my 

funeral, no organ solos, you know. You know. If they 
want to come in with a banjo, that's fine, but no organ 
solos . You know? 

DAVID: Are you planning, are you planning 

for your funeral? 

JOHN-4: Just the basic stuff, you know. 

Actually, we, we have a trash service says they'll pick 
anything up in a bag. I told my wife to save a few 
bucks . 


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DAVID: Listen to this. Listen to this guy. 

God gave you a body, a life -- 

JOHN-4: It's just earthly -- 

DAVID: -- and you, and you -- 

JOHN- 4: -- clay. 

DAVID: -- want to just -- you just want to 

throw it away in the -- well. 


JOHN-4: It's just earthly clay. 

DAVID: Yeah. But, anyway, like I say, see, 

me and you both agree, don't we? 

JOHN-4: On what? 

DAVID: That there's something wrong with the 

churches of today. 

JOHN-4: Well, some of them, undoubtedly. 

You know? 


DAVID: But there's nothing wrong with 

sincerity -- 

JOHN- 4 : It's very 

DAVID : - - though . 

JOHN- 4 : -- very, very commercial. 

DAVID: Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with 

those who are sincere. 

JOHN- 4 : Oh, no. No, nothing wrong with 

sincerity. No. 

DAVID: And that's what this great nation is 


set up for. 


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JOHN- 4 : It can be 

DAVID : It's set up for -- 

JOHN-4: -- misguided, though, and 

destructive. 

DAVID: Oh -- 

JOHN- 4 : Then there's something wrong with 

it. 

DAVID: -- surely it can. But God's not 

going to let any sincere person perish, though, even if 
that person is sincerely deceived. The disciples were 
sincerely deceived. But when sufficient evidence came, 
they even denied the Lord when tested. But still they 
were saved, weren't they? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. So, with that in mind, when 

are you coming out of there? 

DAVID: So, what happens is, is that if I am 

* 

sincerely deceived, then I'm at the mercy of you and 
the mercy of my peers, and I'm consistently saying to 
you, look, I've got this real reality that I'm dealing 
with, and the reality is, is the fact that in all 
honesty and in all soberness I have done all that I 
have done based upon a very clear testament of 
scripture and that I expect my nation, which is the 
greatest in the world, to protect me and to provide for 
me aid to assist me in evaluating my position with this 
God that I am conferring with. So, all I've ever asked 


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from the beginning, since day one, is for -- and in all 
sincerity -- for the wise, the teachers and the 
scholars, those who point men to God, to converse with 
me and to show me the seven seals so that I know that 
they know them. Because, you see, if they know them, 
then that means I'm wrong. Do you understand why? 

JOHN- 4 : I think that they can probably 

arrange that. 

DAVID: Well, that's what we've been -- 

JOHN- 4 : But nobody's going to arrange 

anything until you come out of there. 

DAVID: Well, see, that's -- that, again, is 

one of the problems. 

JOHN- 4 : This, this could be a mechanism for 

that type of audience. 

DAVID: Yeah, but let me explain again. You 

see^ I'm being told by my God to wait, and I've 
received two messages, and I've sent both of these 
messages out. Now, one thing I've always feared is 
that, you see, in a vision -- a vision is a reality. 

But when you come out of a vision, the wor-- this world 
is a reality. 

JOHN-4: Dave, I want to help you and I want 

to help everybody in there, but I, I -- you know, in, 
in my mortal mind, I, I think one of your fears is that 
we're going to look behind the curtain. 


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DAVID: No, no, no. I don't mind you -- I, I 

-- in all means, please look behind the curtain. I 
mean, I'm not afraid of you looking behind the curtain. 
On the contrary, I, I would be more than happy for you 
to look behind the curtain. You can look, you can look 
this place over, anypla-- any -- well, any -- you can 
look this place over every inch you want. You know, 
you can dig, you can dig this place up and you can dig 
a hundred feet deep around this place ten miles around. 
That ' s not what I ' m concerned about . What I ' m 
concerned about is that if you look behind the curtain 
you might see that in the heavenly sanctuary there's a 
God who really does sit on the throne. And I am stuck. 
And that there are really seven seals. 

JOHN- 4 : Why, why 

DAVID : And it's right there for you to -- 

| JOHN-4: Why is a hundred -- 

DAVID : - - read . 

JOHN- 4: Well, say, the sequence, what, what 

is that perimeter, about 100 yards? What, what --if 
you're stuck, are you stuck within 100-yard radius? 

DAVID: No, no, no, no. 

JOHN-4: When you say you're stuck - - I mean, 

I'm talking to you -- 

DAVID: I am stuck in a - 

JOHN-4: Humor me, because I'm just a mortal. 


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42 

But, you know, if you come out of there, what -- how is 
that going to alter this -- the great scheme or, or the 
plan or whatever? I'm, I'm asking you to come 100 
yards -- 

DAVID: Well, because, because, actually -- 

okay, let me back up now. Just look at me with your 
eyes open, okay? There are seven seals, yes or no? 

JOHN- 4 : I have no earthly idea. 

DAVID: Well, then, what you need to do to 

understand my position is just finding one of those 
good books somewhere and read Revelation 4, 5, and 6. 
Just whatever you get out of it . 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And, and you'll see there are seven 

seals. Okay. 

JOHN- 4 : Okay. Okay. But what the -- 

t 

i DAVID: And you'll -- 

JOHN-4: -- heck does that got to do with you 

coming out of there? 

DAVID: Let, let me explain. Because the way 

I received these seven seals, I received it from that 
person who sits on that throne in heaven. 

JOHN-4: Okay. But that, that's you. That's 

(sic) directly affects you, right? 

DAVID: Well, I wouldn't be here if it 


didn't, John. 


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JOHN- 4 : Okay. Well, how about the other 

people in there, then? 

DAVID: Well, the other people -- 

JOHN- 4: How about if they come out of there? 

DAVID: -- where they're affected, and this 

is I showed them what they saw out of Revelation 4, 5, 
and 6. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And then I asked them, well, do you 

know what these seals are? And they said, no. And, 
so, I said, well, let me show you one or two of them, 
and then I want you to go and talk to your teachers -- 

JOHN-4: Is -- well, is it, is it -- 

DAVID: -- and I want you to go talk to your 
preachers and I want you to see what they can show you. 
And they all went and they did so. That's one, one of 
the-j things that I require for any of my students. 

JOHN-4: Can, can God not communicate with 

you outside of the building? 

DAVID: Oh, definitely. He's going to. 

JOHN-4: I don't know where the rub is. I 

mean, the rub is you've got legal problems. 

DAVID: No, no, no. See, I -- 

JOHN-4: And, and that's, that's, that's the 

reality of the -- 


DAVID: Let 


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JOHN-4: -- situation out here. 

DAVID: I'm not -- see, when it comes to my 

obedience to what I am told by scripture, by God, it's 
one and the same. 

JOHN- 4 : God says don' t come out of the 

building? 

DAVID: He says to wait. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. Well, you can wait in the 

slammer. You know? 

DAVID: (Laughter.) Okay. See, John, there 


JOHN-4: I mean, what is the difference -- 

DAVID: -- there are seven seals, John. Now, 

remember, here, here, here's the way the -- 

JOHN-4: There's one slammer, Dave. 

DAVID: Here's the -- (laughter) -- I have -- 


j JOHN- 4: 

DAVID : 
JOHN- 4 : 
DAVID: 
JOHN -4 : 
DAVID : 

Here's pragmatic. 

JOHN-4 : 
DAVID : 


Yeah. 

--no problem with that. 

Be pragmatic, son. 

It -- 
Humor me. 

Hey, look. I'll, I'll be pragmatic. 
There are seven seals. 

Um-hum. 

Now, I don't believe the Catholic 


Church deserves all that money they're getting. I'm 


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sorry, but I just don't believe that. 

JOHN-4: I'm not Catholic. 

DAVID: Well, I'm not -- 

JOHN-4: But I know they're one of the 

richest 

DAVID: I don't m-- 

JOHN-4 : -- institutions in the world. 

DAVID: I don't mind if you are, because some 

of the best people that I have are Catholics, and 
they're here. 

JOHN - 4 : Um- hum . 

DAVID: That's what their, their -- that's 

what their church was. Remember, this is not a 
denominational matter. It's a Christian matter. And 
Christianity is very diverse. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

' DAVID: Okay. It's a, it's a people to 

i 

people thing, not, not a denomination thing. 
Denominations, that's their problem. 


(End of tape . ) 


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U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


i 


TAPE #217 
4/13/93 

A.M. - 2:41 A.M. 


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(Tape #217) 

JOHN- 4 : -- and they are, some of them. 

I agree with you on that. 

DAVID: Okay. 

JOHN- 4: We see eye 

DAVID: So -- 

JOHN-4: --to eye on that. 

DAVID: -- when I come along, I just simply 

reap the harvest of all the honest and sincere. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: That's all -- that's my job. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Okay. Now. So, I will challenge the 

church by challenging their credentials, by saying, is 
this not the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave 
to him to show to his servants or are you one of his 
servants? Well, then, show your people the seven 
seals. Well, scholars have not readily agreed on -- 
well, we don't -- okay, then, well, let me show them. 
So, I'll show them my credentials by showing them the 
seven seals. And people go, wow, awesome, whoa, this 
is m-- this is happening right now. Ooh, cool. You 
know? And they're like blown away because it's right 
there in the book and their eyes are opened to see for 
the first time the perfect harmony of all that the 
prophets have spoken in regarding to the last event of 


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which they are now partaking of. Okay. Now. So, here 
I am in this situation and, as you know in the 
beginning, because of accusation and because of hearsay 
or whatever, we was confronted in a situation to where, 
you know -- well, like, in all due respect, there was 
an agent who for two months I was communicating with 
and giving studies to. Of course, he's out of the 
picture right now. You know, his name's Robert 
Gonzalez. And, you know, I really love this guy and 
this guy knows what I showed him out of the book. And 
all along I was showing him of the events which we're 
now involved in. And here recently, you know, one of 
the news reports, he, he's -- Robert's kind of upset 
because, you know, he stated very clearly that he told 
the, the ATF to avoid -- to abandon the raid. Of 
course, you know -- well, anyway, I -- we won't get 

t 

intq that because we'll bring this all out in court. 

But, but the keynote was is that even though that, that 
Sunday morning, I, I last talked with Robert that 
morning, I told him, I says, Robert, you know, these 
things are happening and they're coming, and I didn't 
learn that from a phone call, which you'll, you'll find 
out in regards to the phone, you know, the phone being 
bugged and all that. But, but I, I explained to him 
about Nahum and everything, Zephaniah and Habakkuk and 
the last events that we're to be involved in, and, and 


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the judgment of the, of the, of the world and, and, and 
the mercy of God and the truth -- 

JOHN- 4 : Why, why would, why would the ATF 

abort? 

DAVID: Well, they would abort it because, 

primarily, there was really no reason to raid us like 
that. I mean, especially when I -- if, if I have a 
charge against me, I mean, I jogged every morning every 
day, all the way down to the end of this road and back. 
I mean, I could have easily been picked up any, any 
time. 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah, but I understand they had a 

search warrant also. 

DAVID: Well, that would have been fine too, 

because at least, at least in that respect they could 
have arrested me, and then they could have just simply 
-- well, we're going to go out there and search and, 
and, fine, they can go and search. But, but the 
problem of it was is that in the -- you know, like, 
like I'm, I'm presenting now in, in the letter that 
I'm, that I'm going to send out, you see -- 

JOHN-4: Yeah, how come, how come if you knew 

they were coming you didn't just come out and meet them 
and 

DAVID : I did. 


JOHN- 4: Whoa. 


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DAVID: I did. I did. It's on the tape. 

Look at the tape. 

JOHN-4 : How come they got their asses shot 

off like that? 

DAVID : Huh? 

JOHN-4: How come they got their asses all 

shot up like that? 

DAVID: Well, look at the tape. I'm -- I 

came out on the, on the front porch -- 

JOHN-4: Why? But, I mean, where did all 

that, where did all that frigging gunfire come from? 

DAVID: Well, John, you know. You've seen 

the tapes. Be honest now. Fo-- be honest. Here I am 

JOHN-4: Well, you've got to help me out, 

because I'm -- you know, I, I came in here just a 
couple of weeks ago. 

DAVID: Oh. Well, John, ask to review the -- 

those first tapes. 

JOHN- 4 : Okay. All right. 

DAVID: Okay? Here I am at the front door, 

totally unarmed. My, my, my feet out on the front 
porch, the, the, the door in my left hand, closing 

JOHN -4 : Just -- I had to be 

DAVID : -- behind me, my right hand up, and 

the exact words that I hollered out, because they were 


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all bailing out of the, the, the back of the trailer. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And my, my exact words were, you 

know, get back. There's women and children here. 

Let's talk about this. 

JOHN- 4 : Um- hum . 

DAVID: And all of a sudden, as they're 

coming around, you know, that, that shot was fired, and 
it's right here in the, in the, in the door at the very 
angle where m-- where I was, and that door kicked. And 
at that point there, you know, I, I, I ju-- it's all on 
tape. I know you' all have got that tape. Because I 
saw the guys right across the street when I was out on 
the front porch over there taping it . 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. Did they -- I mean, they 

really' caught it, though, I mean. I'd hate to be your 
mailman and have my car backfire out there. 

DAVID: Backfire? 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah. I mean, you know, do you 

always have your windows manned like that? 

DAVID: No. There was nobody, there was 

nobody at the windows at that point. They were do-- 
well, people were just, you know, right in the middle 
of -- actually, it was the beginning of study and stuff 
like that. 


JOHN-4: Um-hum. 


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• , • 

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DAVID: But the point of it was is that if 

Robert - - 

JOHN- 4 : I -- you know, I heard 

DAVID : -- Gonzalez 

JOHN -4 : I haven't seen it, but I heard 

there's a lot of holes in the vehicles out there. You 
know, I just wonder where they came from. You know? 

DAVID: Oh, well -- oh, now, let's, let's get 

on the story now. So, what happened was, by, by Robert 
Gonzalez going out and everything, and, and that alarm 
going off and everything, you know, and those 
helicopters flying up and stuff like that, I mean, 
you've got to remember, people around here are 
concerned because we've already told Robert Gonzalez 
that we had had many threats against us. I mean, this 
is also -- if you' all had been bugging our phones, you 
know^ people for a long time, ever since 1986, '87, '88 
-- I mean, like I say, there's a lot of people that 
when I present the seals -- 

JOHN-4: Then your cult is not a turn-the- 

other-cheek bunch? 

DAVID: Oh. Let me say something. Sometimes 

people don't understand the New Testament, and that's 
how Catholicism killed millions. Christ said 
pointblank to his disciples, he says, I sent you out 
with neither purse nor script. Did you lack anything? 


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And they said no. He says you took no sword. He said, 
but now the days are coming when the son of man will be 
delivered. Now, I say unto you if you don't have an 
extra coat, buy one. If you don't have a script, get 
one. If you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy 
one. And he says to the disciples, have you any 
swords? Peter says, we have two. Christ says, it's 
sufficient. And that's what they took out to 
Gethsemane. And, remember, when Peter slayed -- tried 
to cut off that Centurion and hit his ear, he was 
really going for his head. Peter was a bad shot. But 
Christ had already manifested three times that he had 
power to destroy every one of those men. Humsiki 
(phonetic) , Hashua of Nazareth, I am he, and also they 
all fell backwards. Remember in the story? 

JOHN-4: This is a very violent side, then, 

f 

of this cult then, right? 

DAVID: Well, what happens is, is it's the 

right to defend yourself, the right to defend yourself. 
Now, if you understood the seven seals, which were 
truths to be hereafter, you would understand that, that 
there would have been no necessity for all of those 
martyrs to die in the inquisition. Millions died for 
trying to take hold of Hushin Jerome's (phonetic) 
doctrine. Yes, for three -and-a -half years Christ 
taught to turn the cheek, didn't he? But did anybody 


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perish? No. God forbid any of those apostles to 
perish in that three-and-a-half year ministry. But 
after the Jewish nation rejected Christ, well, what 
happened? Well, on the day of Pentecost, very clearly, 
people sold everything, didn't they? But there was a 
man and woman named Ananias and Sapphiras (sic) , and 
they went and sold their parcel of land and they got 
more money than what they thought they would get. So, 
they kept back some, didn't they? And they came and 
laid the residue before the feet of Peter and they 
said, you know, and Peter's says to the husband, you 
know, is this all? And he says, yea. And then Peter 
says to him, you have not lied to men. You've lied to 
the Holy Ghost. And Christ struck him dead. And then 
came Sapphiras. Then came his wife shortly afterwards, 

not knowing what had happened. And Peter said did you 

* 

sellj your property for such-and-such a price? And she 
said, yea. And he says, the feet of those who carried 
your husband out are outside to carry you out, and the 
Spirit struck her dead. Now, this shows that Christ 
wants a pure church, doesn't it? Right? He doesn't 
want liars. The prophet Zephaniah says that there will 
come those who will be leaping on the threshold of 
their master's house to fill their house with violence 
and deceit . You know, God wants a pure church of 
honest believers. And, true, the apostles allowed 


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themselves to be crucified and killed, as a memorial. 
But the thing of it is is that I was on the front 
porch. Everything was to be avoided because, as you 
say, the prophecies are not in the Bible for men to 
fulfill to their destruction, but to be forewarned so 
that men might become wise unto God' s plan of 
salvation. Like with John Kno-- like with John Cox -- 
not John Knox -- John Cox. I said to him, now, John, 
in Psalms 2 the question is asked why do the heathen 
rage. Now, the heathen don't know God. That's why 
they're heathen. They just know what's natural, you 
know, the way they're raised. So, the question is why 
do the heathen rage and the people imagine vain things, 
for the kings of the earth and the rulers take counts 
together against the Lord and against his Anointed. 

Now, if a person was to fight God, can they fight God? 

j JOHN- 4 : Well, do you recommend that the 

country arm themselves? 

DAVID: The forefathers of the Constitution 

in the Bill of Rights recommended the United States of 
American citizens, or the Constitutional as citizens be 
in their own right to defend themselves against any 
tyrannical power that overruled the Democracy. In 
other words, remember -- I realize today that we have 
to modify it because this is a big nation, and not very 
many people here are, are, are democratic. I mean, 


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they're not, they're not for the democracy. They're 
not for the republic. They're individuals. You know 
what I mean? They're for their own gain. 

JOHN-4 : Were you ever in the military? 

DAVID: I never had a chance to be. I kind 

of wish I had but, like I say, I, I got my training in 
a little bit different way. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Back when I was pushing -- like I 

say, I'm, I'm one of the kids, that I guess at my age 
that was probably 1976, '77, I was 17, nothing was 
happening then. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And my friends that went into like 

the Marines and stuff? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

* 

i DAVID: They just got fat. 

JOHN-4: They got fat? 

DAVID: Fat, yeah. 

JOHN- 4: What, what -- too much 

(indiscernible) or what? 

DAVID: Well, no. What happens was it just 

-- you know, it, it was not, it was not, it was not the 
military then. 

JOHN -4 : Why? Why? Do you know? 

DAVID: I guess just because there was no 


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• • 

wars. 

JOHN-4: Hmm. 

DAVID: But what happened was is I went on 

into, into business. 


JOHN- 4 : 

Fat Marines? I can't believe it. 

DAVID : 

Yeah, Pat Hedrick and, and -- 

JOHN- 4 : 

Maybe they're just fat people. 

DAVID : 

Well -- 

JOHN- 4 : 

I can't pic-- 

DAVID : 

Air Force is -- 

-- some went into the Air Force. The 

JOHN- 4 : 

Well, I can see a guy in the Air 


Force getting fat as a hog. 


DAVID: 

Yeah. Well, after the -- 

JOHN- 4 : 

But not in the Marine Corps. 

DAVID: 

f 

-- the basic training is -- of 


course, this is also something that's true. You admit 
to it that, that probably -- how do you know, John? 


JOHN- 4 : 

I'm in my 50s. 

DAVID : 

Really? 

JOHN- 4 : 

Very early. 

DAVID: 

You -- good for fif-- well, okay. 


When you was back in the Marines, they were to teach -- 
okay. There was a time back when kids got whippings, 
right? 


JOHN- 4 : Oh, yeah. Sure. 


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DAVID: Now, today -- now, today, since the 

'60s and the, and the hippies and all that, they don't 
believe in that. I mean, those hippies of the '60s 
grew up, didn't they? 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: In love children and smoking dope and 

all that stuff and no discipline, you know, and they're 
too cute to spank. There's a lot of brats today. But 
there was a time when people were called sir. Now, my, 
my dad, my stepdad, was one of those people that I 
called: yes, sir; no, sir; yes, sir; no, sir. He 

taught me that when a kid came into a group of adults, 
that he weren't supposed to talk unless someone asked 
you a question. He taught me that, when he used to say 
-- he'd get me out in the morning, right? Well, in the 

summertime. And he'd say, I'm going to work now and 

/ 

whei^ I get home I want this yard cleaner than a Safeway 
chicken. 

JOHN-4: This sounds familiar. 

DAVID: He meant it. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And I did procrastinate maybe once or 

twice. 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah. But then you learned. 

(Laughter.) It sounds like you -- 


DAVID: Hey, they, they would have called - 


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JOHN-4: -- you have had a similar 

experience . 

DAVID: They would have called it child 

abuse . 

JOHN- 4 : We call it discipline. 

DAVID: Yeah. And I'm talking about welts 

and I'm talking about stripes. 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: Now. Okay, so, what happens is, is 

that I grew up with this respect for my adults, and 
you'll find in my report cards they may not have been 
good as far as scholastic but when it comes to 
citizenship you'll find A-plus every year. Okay. Now, 
but what happens is, is that, that was my -- my dad was 
a Merchant -- had been a Merchant Marine and he had 
been in the military and all that and he, he was just 

r 

--he wa-- we called him, we called him Rock. I mean, 
the, the, the guy just -- this is the way it's done and 
kids are going to be seen and not heard. And, so, 
finally when I got to the ages of -- because I became 
a, a -- you know, very athletic and very well-contained 
and very, you know, very strong and very disciplined 
in, in a lot of ways. And I didn't, I didn't go into 
the drug scene. You know, friends that were into the 
drugs, I didn't do that. I was into physical activity, 
physical fitness and everything. That was my drug: 


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running, you know, isometrics, gymnastic type stuff. 

And it's just like that, that was it, which is a lot of 
physical and mental discipline. Okay. So, what 
happened was is that -- 

JOHN-4: So, you were just like everybody 

else, then. 

DAVID: No. I was just exactly opposite. 

So, when my friends -- 

JOHN- 4 : All my friends were into it. You 

said, you know, athletics and isometrics and running, 
and it sounds like the group I hung out with. 

DAVID: Well, so, you know, you know what 

it's like after you ran five miles and you run the last 
75 yards, 100 yards with all you've got? 

JOHN- 4 : I used to run eight. Yeah. 

DAVID: Okay. So, the thing of it is, the 

thing of it is, you know what that high, awesome 
sensation of physical being when you lift weights and 
everything is? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: Because some people never experienced 

that. So, I had friends that smoked and wanted to go 
out and drink and things like that. And, okay, so -- 
okay, so, I tried a little bit of it. It, it made me 
feel like I was confined and boxed in. 


JOHN- 4: Um-hum. 


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DAVID: I like to play a sport and I like to 

be able to have my heart pounding out of my chest, my 
lungs working hard, without the faint feeling. I like 
to have my mind open, my perceptions open, you know, to 
where I can play and participate with full senses in 
what I ' m doing . 


JOHN- 4 : That sounds like 

DAVID : And that's what's real. 

JOHN-4: It sounds like any other athlete 

I've ever been with. 

DAVID: Okay. But my other friends, they 

weren't like that. And, so, as, as, as -- 

JOHN-4: You might -- you had some strange 

friends . 


DAVID: Well, no, come on. I -- my, my 

generation is the -- 

* 

/j JOHN-4: That's the -- 

DAVID: -- is the, is the later '70s. 

JOHN- 4: Oh. Oh, okay. 

DAVID: Remember -- 

JOHN-4: Okay. So, we 

DAVID : -- I'm only 33. 

JOHN- 4 : Okay. So, you're -- you've got, 

you've got my generation between yours, but you grew up 
in a different generation because -- 


DAVID: Yeah. You know, here I am, 16, 17 


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years old, and my -- and, and my dad's telling me what 
I can and can't do. Here, here I am at, at 13 years 
old having a birthday and my mom whips me in front of 
my friends. 

JOHN- 4 : Hard to take. 

DAVID: Well, but, but you just take it. But 

the thing of it is, now, my other friends, you know, my 
mother was young and my dad was older, but my, my other 
friends, oh, they, they could go in the store when they 
wanted to, they got allowances for emptying the 
garbage. I got nothing for emptying the garbage. 

JOHN- 4 : Well, they use to feed me for 

emptying the garbage. 

DAVID: Well, okay. That's what it is. 

JOHN- 4 : We had a -- you know those furnaces 

that you have to shovel coal in? 

i DAVID: No, we didn't have that. 

JOHN-4: And then -- see, I really date 

myself, right? So, shovel coal. And then what do you 
have to do? Well, it fills up with ashes. You have to 
empty the ashes out. So, yeah, we had a lot of stuff 
to do around the house, and, and we got fed for it. 

DAVID: It's not -- it's -- and it's -- and, 

and you learned to respect that? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And I remember one time that my 


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granddad came over and he gave me 10 bucks, and it took 
me two weeks -- but he gave -- now, this is back 
probably in '70-- '75, something like that, maybe '74. 
We tore down a bam and they wanted to use the lumber 
for construction. 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: And I had to de-nail all this lumber. 

And two weeks of work, and I'm talking about I put at 


least 

anywhere from four to six hours 

a day in 

this, 

and he 

gave me 10 

bucks . 




JOHN-4 : 

Um-hum. 




DAVID : 

Now, back then that 

was a lot 

of 

money . 






JOHN- 4 : 

Yeah. 




DAVID : 

And -- 




JOHN-4 : 

Did you ever clean 

bricks? 


i 

DAVID : 

No, I never did that. 



JOHN -4 : 

Yeah, they take -- 




DAVID: 

But -- 




JOHN- 4 : 

-- antique bricks, 

you know, 

and the 


-- when they destroy the building? 


DAVID: Uh-huh. 

JOHN-4: Sit there -- you sit there with a 

brick hammer. You clean bricks -- 
DAVID: (Indiscernible) . 

JOHN- 4 : -- and you stack them. It reminds 


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ne -- your barn thing reminds me of that, just -- I was 
wandering through my past. Go ahead, Dave. 

DAVID: Yeah, but, you know -- okay, I'm 

saying that -- okay. What appeared to be my hardship 
was actually a blessing for me, and I learned -- I 


you know, my dad 

JOHN -4 : I don't think that's a hardship, 

though. I think it's just work for a young man. 

DAVID: Well, if you have other influences 

saying what, you mean you can't come out? You, you 
still go to do that? 

JOHN- 4 : Dm-hum. 

DAVID: You know. Aw, man -- 

JOHN-4: Well, that's your perception -- 

DAVID: You need -- 

JOHN- 4: -- though. 

* 

i DAVID: Huh? 

JOHN-4: That's your perception. 

DAVID: Yeah, but I'm saying that when you 

have kids of your age saying, you need to tell your 
parents to cram it, clown. You know, this is a, a, a 
temptation and the reality. But the thing of it was, 
when I did rebel to some degree and I went out with my 
friends, you know, well, mom, I'm going over to so-and 
bo' s house, but really we're going out to the lake, 
right? You know, that kind of stuff? 


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JOHN- 4 : Urn-hum. Well, I have boogied till I 

almost went nuclear, you know? 

DAVID: Nuclear? 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah. I mean, boogie, boogie, 

boogie. Boogie till you puke. You know? You know, 
all, all work and no play makes John a dull boy. You 
know? 

DAVID: Well, I never really boogied till -- 

played till I'm -- boogied till I played. Anyway, but 
the reason was -- is that the time came when -- okay, 
my friends, they were all driving around, you know, 
what, we were like 15, 16, whatever, and these guys 
whip out this alcohol, you know. And, so there they 
are. And I started working out at 11 years old, is 
when I first got my first Sears and Roebuck's weights, 
at 11 years old. And, so, by the time I was 14, 15, I 
was -like, you know -- at school, like I was the fastest 
kid in school and all that kind of stuff, and the 
Presidential Physical Fitness award, I, I, I could do 
all that stuff, you know, no problem, and, you know -- 

JOHN-4 : Who was president then? 

DAVID: When it first started, I think 

Richard Nixon. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: And I think that was, what, in 


fourth, fifth grade? 


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JOHN- 4 : Okay. 

DAVID: Fourth grade. Fourth grade. Yeah. 

So, so, Richard Nixon, of course, you know, all those 
things, you know, I could do. There was no problem and 
stuff. And I just -- I -- that was when I learned -- I 
began to become physically and spiritually aware of my 
being. And, so, when I first get this strange 
sensation of being intoxicated by this, you know, few 
drinks of alcohol and stuff like that, it's like, you 
know, what's, what's wrong with my body? You know. 

And it became a, it became a repulsive thing. Later 
on, there's always that day when everyone in, in school 
in my generation was out smoking pot. I mean, that was 
the thing. They were -- you know, we had an open 
campus at school and everyone was like -- the big thing 
was to smoke a joint during break or during lunch on 

f 

the .open campus. 

JOHN - 4 : Um- hum . 

DAVID: You know, the pigs ain't going to do 

nothing to me and this kind of thing. And, finally, 
you know, as, as, as a human being, so to speak, in 
this world, you know, say no to drugs, you know, 
finally, I -- you know, okay, well, I'll try some of 
that, and it was just like -- it was so repulsive 
because it takes away the confinements of reasoning. 

It makes you feel like something's creeping up on top 


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) 


of you and, and now you have no control. An athlete is 
a person that is, is, is strictly driven by his 
physical relationship to his perceptions and to his, 
you know, senses, you know, your agility, your, your, 
your stamina, your -- you know, you got a -- you're 
like, you're like monitoring yourself in your 
performance. And, so, this, this is what kept me away 
from, from all of this kind of crap. 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: But on the other hand, when it comes 

to the perception of the meaning of God, you know, if 
you, if you want to do good, why? How come I want to 
do good and my cousins and my brother and everyone else 
wants to do bad? How come I can't go out and find a 
group that wants to do good that's not dorky. Now, 

okay, so, I tried to -- 

* 

/j JOHN- 4 : Geez, you know, I've got a friend 

that's a professional baseball pitcher -- 

DAVID: Uh-huh? 

JOHN-4: -- who is, is, you know -- has some 

of those values you're talking about, you know, and 
he's not dorky. You know? He's head of the youth 
group in my church. And, you know, it's just an 
example of some -- what you're talking about. 


DAVID: Um-hum. 

JOHN-4: A very clean-living guy. 


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DAVID : Right . 

JOHN- 4 : He's in the majors. And, you know, 

he's a good example for kids because he's not dorky. 
But, you know, unless somebody has that position, some 
kids think yeah, he's a dorky guy because he's 
religious, you know. 

DAVID: Like I said, true religion is true 

education. I mean, what true religion is supposed to 
be is an explanation of the sciences, of knowledge, 
technology, everything in its proper and true purest 
form. In other words, the ultimate reality is to sit 
before God and say God, how did you make the sun? 

JOHN-4: I got -- 

DAVID: And, of course, you don't want to 

lie. 

JOHN- 4 : A minor 

DAVID : You don't want to steal. 

i 

JOHN-4: -- a minor reality is this problem 

here, right? 

DAVID: Well, actually, this is more of a 

major reality in the respect that -- okay. In all 
respects, we're subject here to severe penalties. 

JOHN-4: That possibility exists. 

DAVID: Oh, it's, it's a reality, of which, 

you know, I would not -- 


JOHN-4: Well, severe penalties -- I don't 


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• > • 

know if -- that's a defeatist attitude. I mean, that's 
why you have attorneys and so forth. 

DAVID: Well, no, no, no. Wait a minute now. 

Even that 

JOHN -4 : And I'm not trying to lessen it. I 

mean, what's going to be will be. 

DAVID: Even that itself is a punishment, 

because these guys require high dividends for their so- 
called protection of the innocent. But, again, 
remember if I was on my own -- I mean, if I had cooked 
up this religion. If I had any, any evil -- like you 
say, if you looked behind the curtain and there I was 
-- right? 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: And that's all there is is just me 

behind the curtain, right? Oh, man. I'm in big 
trouble, and I have no one to help me. 

JOHN-4: That, that is a real possibility. 

DAVID: Yeah. Okay. But that's not the 

case. 

JOHN- 4: Okay. 

DAVID: On the contrary. On the contrary, 

what I do teach, I do know how I received it. And what 
I do know, I do know how I learned it. And when I was 
younger, I ran and I worked out and I, I found out 
that, first, that 65 pounds was heavy and finally 65 


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pounds became something that was, you know, lifted in 
one arm -- 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: -- 20 times and 30 times reps, you 

know. 

JOHN-4: Yeah, but that's just like everybody 

else in the world. 

DAVID: Exactly. And that's, that's, that's 

-- and if you, if you are willing to deal with the 
pain, you will get the gain. 

JOHN- 4: Sure. 

DAVID: No pain, no gain. 

JOHN- 4 : You can't hardly even get in the 

frigging -- I'm going to work out tomorrow when I get 
off the job, you know? 

DAVID: Do a little running? 

- } JOHN- 4 : Sometimes the place is so crowded -- 

I lift weights and do a little running -- you know, 
that I can't get in there. So, you know, this is not 
unique. It's the norm, the social norm, at least in 
that group, you know. 

DAVID: Exactly. But when I was in Israel -- 

JOHN-4: I was going to try to say you're 

very normal 

DAVID: Yeah -- 


JOHN-4 : 


very average. 


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DAVID: Thanks, but I wish we could have met 

each other out fishing somewhere and talked about this 
instead of, you know, somewhere -- what angle we're 
looking at it from right now. Because where you're 
looking at it, you're, you're talking to a cult leader 
and, of course, you know, you expect me to say anything 
I can to lessen that presentation. And I'm talking to 
you as a Federal agent who's going to say any and 
everything you can to, to try to lessen my position. 
But, of course -- 

JOHN-4: What, you know, what I'm trying to 

do is, is bring a pres-- peaceful resolution and, you 
know, the reality of that is you come out of there. 

DAVID: Well, that's -- I agree with that. I 

-- and I, and I wholeheartedly adhere to that. But, 

again *- 

* 

-• JOHN-4: Is, is -- let me ask you something, 

because I 

DAVID : I'm reasoning with your perceptions 

by saying -- I'm saying this -- I'm saying, now, John, 
if God does sit on a throne, if God did give me a book 
and reveal to me clearly beyond any shadow what the -- 

JOHN-4: If, if that's a fact -- 

DAVID: -- seven seals are 

JOHN -4 : -- if that's a fact, and, and, you 
know, and, and, and I were you in there, I'd come out 


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of there in a New York minute. 

DAVID: Now, but here's the -- 

JOHN- 4 : Because I got the world -- 

DAVID: Now, wait -- now, now -- 

JOHN-4: -- I got the world by the ass. 

DAVID: Now, wait a minute. Because here's 

the thing. If God gave it to me, I received it from 
God and the instruction came from God, and that's where 
I am subject to God. I'm not subject to anybody but 
God. If I -- 

JOHN-4: Would, would he, would he not 

forgive you if you came about 200 yards? 

DAVID: That's not the question. The 

question is, is that I obey explicitly his counsel. 

It's not a question of him forgiving me. You don't 
willfully tempt God. You don't step over and say, 

t 

well-, God, I'm going to do it this way because maybe 
you'll forgive me. Absolutely not. 

JOHN-4: What if you said please? 

DAVID: Okay. Here is the thing. Here is 

the position to where what is serious to me about life 
and death is not serious to you. And it's right there 
in your book. It's right there every Sunday when you 
go to church. It's right there in the Bible, a 
Revelation of your Lord and Savior. Now, you want him 
to be obedient to the Father so that through his 


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righteousness he can save you. Right? Right. And 
you're asking him to go against his Father to adhere to 
you, which would make him equal to you and both of you 
will go to hell? God requires obedience. Now, in the 
letters that I sent out recently -- remember those 
letters? 

JOHN-4: I saw one of them. 

DAVID: Okay. It talks about the earthquake. 

JOHN-4: That's about you're going to throw 

some lightning bolts or something. 

DAVID: No, no, no, no. Remember, each one 

of those are passages from your Bible. Forget it being 
from me. Those are testaments from the prophets who 
say: God said. 

JOHN-4: Someone 

DAVID: Now -- 

- JOHN-4: -- ought to buy some fire insurance. 

DAVID: Exactly. So, now, when Revelation 

says this mystery of God will be finished when there's 
time no longer as God has declared to his servants the 
prophets, remember, if we do not take heed to the 
warnings and accept the salvation God gives to us in 
truth, then we're going to receive the penalties. 

We're not only doing despite (sic) to the word, to 
Christ, we're doing despite to God on the throne. 

We're sticking our tongue at God saying, thhh (noise) . 


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JOHN-4: Let me ask you something. 

DAVID: Sure. 


29 


JOHN-4: Since, you know, you're -- I'm not 

well-versed in what you're talking about, but do you 
believe that God spoke to Oral Roberts? 

DAVID: Absolutely not. 

JOHN-4: He got several million dollars doing 

that . 

DAVID: I know. But that's why, that's why 

I've never followed those avenues and never will. 

JOHN- 4 : Well, how -- why should I believe 

you versus Oral Roberts? 

DAVID: Exactly. A good question. Why 

should you? I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm 
asking you to look and see for yourself. 

JOHN-4 : Do you remember what God said to 

Ora?j Roberts? 

DAVID: Something about if he didn't get so 

many millions he'd take him to heaven? 

JOHN-4: That's extortion. 

DAVID: Hey, well, you know something? 

JOHN- 4 : We have cases like that every day. 

People 

DAVID: NASA -- the -- 

JOHN- 4 : -- drop the -- drop 10,000 bucks in 

a trash can at the corner of 14th and T or we'll kill 


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you. 

DAVID: Well, it's like this -- 

JOHN-4: You know, we didn't think God would 

resort to that. 

DAVID: (Laughter.) 

JOHN- 4 : I don't think he needs the money 

anyhow. 

DAVID: I answer people that -- when they 

present the question to me in this wise, I say look, 
NASA has spent billions to get to the moon. And this 
guy could have gotten past Orion on millions, he should 
have taken it. He should have taken it. 

JOHN-4: I think, you know, that -- in a, in 

a layman's -- in the most pragmatic way, just, you 
know, philosophizing, if I were God I would say David, 

go out there and face that. Show them. You know, you 

* 

cou^d ironically be David with Goliath, you know. 

DAVID: (Laughter.) 

JOHN-4: Because the Government's large, you 

know. It's large. 

DAVID: Well, you know what Isaiah says -- 

JOHN-4: I can't understand why he's -- 

DAVID: -- about my position -- 

JOHN-4: -- why he's telling you to sit on 

your hands in there. 


DAVID : Huh? 


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JOHN-4: I can't understand why you're being 

told to sit on your hands in there. 

DAVID: Well, I'm not. There's actually 

things that are taking place that are very serious in 
behalf of everybody's for-- fare-- farewell-- welfare. 
Remember, when Isaiah says the Lord God will come with 
a strong hand, his reward is with him, he's talking 
about Christ, right? Christ brings his reward, the 
book with seven seals. It says he'll gather his flock 
like a shepherd. Right? 

JOHN-4: Urn -hum. 

DAVID: And it says, behold, the nations are 

a drop of a bucket and are counted as a small dust of 
the balance. His (indiscernible) the nations is a very 
little thing. So, in other words, Isaiah states that 
at the time of the, of the revealing of the seals that 
the ^national or the nations combine together, that 
their opinions and their decisions will be exactly what 
all the prophets say in regards to God's will being 
against their will. In Psalms 2, clearly, the prophet 
foresaw that the heathen would rage and they would 
imagine vain things saying, you know, about God and 
la-- and, and the Anointed One, which is the lamb, let 
us break their bands asunder and cast their cords from 
us. Well, what they're avoiding is, is they're 
avoiding the connection between the lamb and the 


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Father, which is tied by those seven seals. You see, 
if a person learns the seven seals, then they'll be 
bound to God through his word, which through prophecy 
God had made heaven and earth by his word, also by the 
word that he go to the prophets foretells what will be 
when there's time no longer. Why it will be and how it 
will be. Those who refuse to hear the prophets refuse 
to hear Christ, who said woe unto you that believe not 
all that the prophets have spoken. 

JOHN- 4 s Um-hum. 

DAVID: And if God chooses to hide it in a 

mystery, then when there's time no longer the subject 
of the seals will be proclaimed as a final message of 
invitation of salvation for a nation who's to be 
judged. Now, my position, again, is this. If it's 
true that the heathen are raging and they're not 

t 

regarding -- 

JOHN-4: Is -- 

DAVID: -- the seven seals, let us break his 

bands asunder. How many bands are there? Seven. 

JOHN-4: Dave, does God listen to prayer? 

DAVID: Well, if we pray to God according to 

his spirit, he listens to us. Now, but here's the 
problem. In the seventh seal in heaven, Christ reveals 
himself at the altar and he offers the final prayers 
before the Father before he casts the censor to earth. 


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Now, when he comes with his book, it's time for man to 
listen to God's prayers. It's time for you to listen 
to the seven seals. 

JOHN- 4 : But, but 

DAVID : Because all you're going to be 

praying for is Father, give me food, give me money, 
give me security, give me grace, give me strength to 
overcome, protect my family, protect my kids, which 
naturally God -- 

JOHN- 4 : No, I, I haven't really prayed for 

that . 


DAVID: Well, naturally God provides those 

things anyway for us. 

JOHN-4: If you work. 

DAVID : (Laughter . ) 

JOHN-4: But, but, you know, does he listen 

to prayer? You know, I'm asking you as a theologian, 
because I'm not a theologian. I'm a fairly ignorant 
person when it comes to theology. 

DAVID: Well, God states if we pray to God 

according to his will he hears us, and we've got to 
know what his will is. 

JOHN-4: Because I, I heard on the news 


before I came on tonight there's a church praying that 
you come out of there and everybody, you know, makes it 
out okay. 


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DAVID: Well, that's what everybody -- 

JOHN- 4 : And I was just wondering -- 

DAVID: -- wants. 

JOHN- 4 : Well, that's not anybody praying for 

anything personal. That's praying for an unknown 
person, you know. And I know that's -- there's a lot 
of people in this country are doing that. And that's 
why I was wondering if God listens in or are they 
peeing in the wind? You know? 

DAVID: No. God never turns away any sincere 

heart. That's the whole principle of the, of the -- 
of, of the gospel, the New Testament. And, remember, 
as I said before, what is serious to me is the fact 
that I explained very clearly to people that prophecy 
is the testimony of Jesus Christ. When the lamb comes 
again, he's to reveal the seven seals, and those seals 
are prophecies very clearly written by the prophets 

i 

proclaiming what is to be done by God and when it is to 
be done. Now, a person says to me, well, David, what 
do you think is going to happen? It don't make no 
difference what David thinks. What makes the 
difference is what does God think. My name is not, 
biologically, David Koresh. On the contrary. Jacob's 
name was changed by God 

JOHN -4 : It was Vernon Howell. 

DAVID: Vernon Howell. 


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) 


JOHN- 4: Did you ever see Jim Varney do that, 

Hey, Vern? 

DAVID: Vernon Wayne Howell. That's about 

as, as country as you can get, isn't it, boy? 

JOHN- 4 : It's a good, it's a good name to 

take to Nashville. 


DAVID: Yeah. Okay. So, so, Abram's name 

was changed to Abraham by God. Sarai was changed to 
Sarah. You know, Moses had a name change. Jacob had a 
name change as well. I mean, why does God change 
people's name for? Because -- 

JOHN- 4: That's show business, I guess. 

DAVID: When he -- (laughter) -- when he 

brings them to a knowledge of his will -- 
JOHN-4: In a (indiscernible) -- 

DAVID: -- they're willing to do his will. 

5 JOHN- 4 : Do you know what Bing Crosby's real 

name was? 


DAVID: What? 

JOHN-4: Harry Lilly (phonetic). 

DAVID: Possibly. 

JOHN-4: Really. No, it's true. No, a lot 

of people 

DAVID : Well, Bing Crosby wasn't teaching the 

seven seals, was he? 


JOHN- 4: I don't think so. 


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DAVID: But he sang pretty good, though. 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. Yeah. I, I personally don't 

-- I hate Bing Crosby. I can't stand his music. It's 
too depressing. You know, I don't like big band. I 
don't like any of that stuff. I like '50s and '60s 
rock and a little bit of country western. 

DAVID: Well, do you like Randy Travis? 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah. He's okay. Yeah. 

DAVID: I like him. 

JOHN-4: I don't, I don't get a pure steady 

diet of that, you know, but -- you know, he's all 
right. You know. I, I, I cannot abide rap. How you 
feel about rap? I know you got some musical talent . 

DAVID: Well, some people have said that I'm 

one of the hottest guitar players in the nation. 

JOHN- 4 : You ought to get out more. 

(Laughter. ) 

DAVID: (Laughter.) Thanks. 

JOHN-4 : Those people ought to get out more 

too. 

DAVID: Maybe we should have some jailhouse 

rock, right? 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. I got a niece and nephew down 

in Nashville breaking in the business. Boy, the 
competition down there is incredible. 


DAVID: I can imagine. Well, I -- you know. 


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I went to L. A. and stuff, and I pulled out of it 
because the majority of people that, that wanted to 
play with me and stuff didn't have the, didn't have the 
vision down. It'B -- you know, I never, I never -- 

JOHN-4: Just musical talent, no vision? 

DAVID: Well, what I'm saying is you get a, 

you get a false picture in Hollywood area, and that is 
that, that -- 

JOHN- 4 : Oh, I know that. I've been there a 

few times, you know. It's -- 

DAVID: Yeah. It's -- 

JOHN-4: You know, that's not reality, I 

don't believe. 

DAVID: It's, it's, it's -- like I said, it's 

show business. And some people don't leave the show at 
the theater. They bring it out into public. 

/ JOHN-4: You've got it. They start believing 

their own bullshit, their own -- 

DAVID: Basically. 

JOHN-4: -- press clippings. 

DAVID: And, so, you know, it's, it's 

something to where -- 

JOHN-4: They live in a, in a, in an 

illusion. 

DAVID: Right. And, so, the reason why I 

pulled out was because the -- 


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JOHN-4: You looked, you looked behind their 

curtain, didn't you? 

DAVID: Well, not only that. It was a 

problem I was having with my own students. I mean, I, 

I obtained some pretty good musicians and I -- you 
know, but when they, when they saw the visions and 
everything, they, they, they had this natural problem 
with the pride of, of exposure, the, the prestige of 
fame, you know. It's like -- the story is, is that 
yes, you can take Israel out of Egypt, Moses 
accomplished that, but it's hard to get Egypt out of 
Israel. So, you know, you don't want to say something 
and then have to destroy it later, so to speak. You 
know what I mean? You don't want to, you don't want to 
start your walk of salvation and have the salvation 
destroy you through spiritual pride. And, so, like I 

r 

saic^, I, I told my students, I says, look -- 

JOHN-4: Like shutting yourself off? 

DAVID: Well, for instance, when, when I 

would go to the clubs, I'm in there looking for souls. 
I'm in there looking for people that have a question 
and, and they're frustrated because they don't have a 
clear answer. 

JOHN- 4 : You know what I used to look for in 

those clubs? 


DAVID: I do-- I 


don't tell me. 


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JOHN-4: Don't tell you? Okay. I won't. 

DAVID: Probably not looking for souls. 

JOHN-4: No. Uh-uh. Of course, that's when 


I was single, you know. 


DAVID: And, so, you know, the, the point of 

it is is that, you know, a lot of churches shoot me 
down for that. But, of course, again, like I say, 
Christ is accused of being a friend of publicans and 
harlots, wasn't he? 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: He went to their parties. 

JOHN-4: I didn't know he went to their 

parties . 

DAVID: Why don't you read Matthew, Mark, 

Luke, and John? 


JOHN-4: Because I don't have a lot of time 

to do that. 

j 

DAVID: Well, see, it's, it's, it's something 

that the service and the cares of this life are 
overcoming you. 


JOHN- 4 : I've got this job. You know? 

DAVID: You've got this job, right? 

JOHN-4: I've got a job. Yeah. Yeah. I did 

take some writing courses one time in night school, but 
that was a, a luxury. We - - 


DAVID: Well 


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JOHN-4: -- we keep weird hours, as you're. 


as you're finding out. 


DAVID: Ah, I'm keeping them with you. 

JOHN-4: (Laughter.) You've got a point 

there. Yeah. 


DAVID: But, of course, I've got a 24 -hour a 

day alarm clock. 

JOHN- 4: Uh-huh. 

DAVID: When my body finally says, ah, no 

more, you got to pass out. I have the weirdest dreams 
of being swarmed by bees, being locked up in the pogy. 
I've given more sermons in the jailhouse in my dreams 
the past -- you know. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. Maybe -- what does that 

mean? Does it mean -- do dreams mean anything? 

DAVID: Well, there's definitely hope. 

#• 

Dreams comes with the mu-- to the business, but visions 
are not dreams. They're totally different. But dreams 
are definitely the wandering of the mind. 

JOHN- 4 : Psychologists say it's a good way to 

relieve stress, that it's a necessary way to relieve 
stress. 

DAVID: Yeah. But -- 

JOHN-4: And that even, even -- we dream 

every night, or every time we sleep, but we don't have 
memory of a lot of it. 


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DAVID: Right. You know, I, I tried to talk 

to, to our attorneys in regards to every legal aspect, 
and we were basically satisfied except on a couple or 
three points, which we're -- we were rewriting certain 
things, you know, certain things that we, we were 
sending out, of which, I guess, tomorrow I'll be 
presenting that to, to the attorney. 

JOHN- 4 : Yeah. He's going to be here in the 

morning, I understand. 

DAVID: Right. 

JOHN-4: And he'll, and he'll be calling. 

Yeah. So, you guys probably won't have a sit-down? 

DAVID: But he kept, he kept, he kept stating 

in the beginning --he kept saying, well, you know, 
we'll get out on the -- and I kept saying, you know -- 

JOHN-4: Don't, don't tell me about any legal 

defense stuff, okay? 

DAVID: Oh, I'm not. I'm not. 

JOHN-4: Okay. 

DAVID: No, it's -- you know, that's, that's 

all secured. But the thing of it is is that I kept 
explaining to him that -- you know, I said one thing 
that, that no one wants to understand is the importance 
of the seals in the respect that if I do know these 
seals, and if -- 

JOHN-4: You know, he's thinking about your 


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butt in court, you know? 

DAVID: I know. But, see, he doesn't realize 

that he's going to stand in court and that -- see, the 
judgment of the living does not take place when you go 
to heaven. 

JOHN- 4: I know. But he's trying to han-- 

handle the immediate business. 

DAVID: Exactly. Which could cause him the 

loss of his soul. 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: You do not -- 

JOHN-4: Well, he might -- you know, some of 

the, some of the attorneys I know would go for that one 
to win a case. I think they have a few times. You 
know what I mean? 

DAVID: Yeah, I know. It's, it's -- the 

legal game is a game. 

JOHN-4: I think it's true in just about any 

business, Dave. You know? There's a lot of people 
that 

DAVID : Except in my business. 

JOHN-4: -- you know, selling their souls for 

what they consider success, you know. 

DAVID: Right. Well, I never sold my soul 

for rock and roll, that's for sure. 


JOHN- 4: Um-hum. 


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DAVID: And as far as people asking me about 

my financial status and stuff like that, my financial 
status is something that is the most unique and clear 
and easy-cut and biblical status there is, and that is 
you'll find that my possessions are co-owned. And 
that's something you can't say for preachers and 
ministers . 

JOHN- 4 : Um-hum. 

DAVID: No. You see, but that -- you know, 

they've got their own bank accounts -- 

JOHN-4: And joint titles, Dave. 

DAVID: Exactly. And this way I become more 

of a, of a product. I become, I become a -- something 
owned by the people and owned by those who have a right 
any and all times to, to controvert or to, to take any 

and all things of which are positionally given to me 

* 

or, jor used by me. There was one time when a person -- 
actually, a person bought me a new car. And I - - what 
year was that? That was -- well, because I was -- you 
know, like I said, I've always, I've always drove 
things that I've tinkered and, and, and, you know, mo-- 
either motorcycle or, or Borne old car. And this person 
bought me a, a Honda Prelude. You ever seen the 
Preludes? 

JOHN- 4: Yeah, I have. 

DAVID: I think that this was a -- what year 


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was that? Was that '70-- no, that was a '86, '87? 

JOHN- 4 : Urn-hum. 

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE IN BACKGROUND: '87. 

DAVID: '87 model. And, of course, you know, 

I -- you know, I -- you know -- na, na, na. But, 
anyway -- but the thing was, was that I tried to get on 
the highway with it one time out in Los Angeles -- 

JOHN-4: Yeah. Well, that's dangerous in 

itself. You know. 

DAVID: And, and it felt like it was powered 

by a rubber band. It was not an FI . It was a -- 

JOHN- 4: Yeah. 

DAVID: -- it was a real -- it was real ni-- 

you know, it was -- definitely, you could go to sleep 
driving it, but it was -- you couldn't hear it run, you 
know. -It had a great stereo in it, a cold air 
conditioner, which I never used air conditioning 
anyway . 

JOHN-4: Um-hum. 

DAVID: I turned it on once or twice just to 

-- say, because I 

JOHN -4 : Where, where are you from 

originally? 

DAVID: I was born in Houston, Texas. 

JOHN-4: Oh, okay. So, you're used to the 


heat. Yeah. 


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cents . 


would, 


See how old I am? And that thing, it, it 
it would run on fumes for about four miles, 


I 


think . 


DAVID : Yeah, well -- 

JOHN-4: Yeah. That was a great car. It was 

about a 30-- 35, 36 miles a gallon to -- 
DAVID: Yeah, well, see -- 

(End of tape . ) 


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U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


1 



TAPE #218 
4/13/93 

2:41 A.M. - 3:26 A.M. 


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(Tape 218)' 

DAVID KORESH: -- Volkswagen. I used to 

drive one of those, too. 

JOHN: You don't drag race with them. 

DAVID KORESH : No . 

JOHN: You've got to build your RPM's, yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: In this Prelude, you'd like 

have it to the floor, you know, and it's a four-speed, 
you know. Automatic, this is an automatic, and it 
would shift all the way down and go rmmmm, rmmmm, 
rmmmm. And it would be like -- It would, it would 
speed up, but it wouldn't go no faster. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And you'd be -- have a guy 

trying to run you off the road and stuff. And so I 
said w£ll, I'm going to work something out. We're 
goirfcg to buy an old Camaro and, and I'm going to make 
it -- Some of the guys, we're going to talk about, you 
know 

JOHN : The older cars got mils in them, you 

know. 

DAVID KORESH: Got what? 

JOHN: They've got real mils in them, 

engines . 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, yeah. Well, see, I used 

to build high performance engines anyway. 


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) 


JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: My uncle used to drag race. 

JOHN: Oh. 

DAVID KORESH: And, as a matter of fact, the 

black Camaro that's out here, that I finally did 
finish, you know, it's, it's built with a 427 in it. 

JOHN: Wow. 

DAVID KORESH: And that engine there was -- 

it's got, it's got the Merlin (phonetic sp.) heads, and 
the way that that was ported and everything and the way 
the carburetion -- I used the new Holly system on it 
which has the -- And it's got better palinium (phonetic 
sp.) mixture in it. It's got the open Ford jets on 
them, instead of like the, the more dramatic closed 
narrow Holly ones, and it's a Holly but it's fashioned 
as a as the way the old Fords used to have theirs, 
which -- 

i 

JOHN: It'll scoot. 

DAVID KORESH: Yeah. What happens is the 

atomization of it breaks up really fast, the top of the 
thing, before it even goes through the palinium. And 
so that Camaro there -- 

JOHN: What's the palinium? 

DAVID KORESH: Huh? 

JOHN: What's the palinium? 

DAVID KORESH: The palinium is the, the two 


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levels of the, of the manifold which -- See, you have 
to equalize your, your tunnels between where the fuel 
and air mixes in the manifold, intake manifold. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And when that mixes, it has to 

go to each one of your cylinders -- 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: -- and your, and your 

cylinders are not at the same distance to where your 
carburetor 

JOHN: Right. 

DAVID KORESH: -- you know, butterfly intake 

JOHN: Oh, okay. The pressure gets it to all of 

them equally. 

DAVID KORESH: And so, and so you have to 

f 

equalize it so the, so the palinium allows areas and 
ports to be able to mingle throughout the casting of 
the manifold, to where it finally equalizes every and 
all intake. Just like on headers, the actual theory of 
headers is, is you need the same length of pipe before 
it gets into the collector, right? So you get this 
header and it's like the pipes are bent really funny. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Because, you know, that's 


where you get your equal, your equal exhaust pressure, 


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which helps balance out the overall pressure of the 
engine. You've got your entering crank case for 
pressures and everything conversant with your, your 
exhaust pressures and, you know, you need to equalize. 
So that's why they get, you know, like the, the dual 
and the -- and all the hooker and headers that are 
really expensive, have this equal tubing that goes up 
your collector into your, into your manifold. Now, 
they, they put a cross-over tube to not only equalize 
your, your right and left side of the bank of your 
engine, but also to equalize the final exhaust to the 
right and left sides of the, of the, of the exhaust 
pipes . 

And turbos, you know, they, they don't use 
open exhaust ' cause that helps the engine to become 

static. You need a little bit of back pressure on your 

* 

engihe, because, otherwise, it's kind of like it comes 
up to exhaust -- If you use like a 202 valve on a, on a 
small block, you know, the pressure's being expelled to 
become almost zero. And that kind of like -- It's like 
you're leaning up against the door, right, trying to 
push the door? Then all of a sudden it opens up and 
you just fall out, right? 

JOHN: Yeah. 


DAVID KORESH: Okay, that's what happens with 

your engine. You need a little bit of exhaust pressure 


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there to balance out the cycle. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: And it helps the engine have 

more power. If somebody says -- give you more power, 
well, the reason why is 'cause it takes up that, 
that -- this harmonic balance in your engine. You've 
got like crank and rods and all that. You balance all 
those out, and you need to balance out your compression 
levels and your exhaust levels and, you know, really 
fine tune it. Well, anyway, in my Camaro with the 427 
big block, which is a large bore but it's a short 
stroke, you know, you know, that thing there on the 
highway gets 32 miles per gallon, you know, using a -- 
Well, I've actually used 275' s, which is a highway 
running gear, and I've actually had it as, as low as a 
265 in it. And that, that's with all the horsepower I 

f 

needj 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And because it's such a high 

displacement engine and because it, it's tuned up 
properly and everything, 'cause I have a few other 
trick items on it, I get all that nice horsepower, all 
that nice fuel economy. And then, of course, they say 
well, it runs higher emissions. Well, that may be 
true, but, of course, the engine is balanced -- 

JOHN: What kind of, what kind of fuel -- 


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DAVID KORESH: It actually runs, it actually 

runs -- The compression ratio is right at 10 to 1. 

But -- 

JOHN: Well, is it leaded or unleaded? 

DAVID KORESH: Unleaded. You know, I use the 

bronze guides and everything and the hardened seats and 
the high tensile steel and stuff on the valves, 
stainless valves and everything. And so -- 

JOHN: Well, where 'd you get that balanced? 

DAVID KORESH : Huh? 

JOHN: Where 'd you get it balanced? 

DAVID KORESH: Ted Eaton here locally in Waco 

did this one. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: He's one of the better 

balancer -- It needed a little balancing. We balanced 

* 

the .'actually -- the flywheel assembly, the harmonic 
balancer, the crank, the rods, the pistons, and 
everything. And that, that's a thorough balance job. 
You can -- You know, on a few grams, you know, it's -- 
You know, the more precise the building of the motor, 
the better efficient it is. I mean, it's the 
difference between the running of a lawn mower and the 
running of a watch. 

JOHN: Is that thing blueprinted? 

DAVID KORESH: Right. The actual blueprint. 


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though, ia, is not -- it's not -- When someone says 
blueprint, they're talking about a mach model, 
something that's already been proven effective. It's 
documented, meaning that, you know, everything -- 

JOHN: So if you build this you'll get this. 

DAVID KORESH: Huh? 

JOHN: So if you build it this way, you'll 

get this. 

DAVID KORESH: Yeah. When you actually have 

a -- Say, you want an L6, say, you want a 427 --Or 
actually an L6 is a 454, you know, because it came out 
in this year model car from Chevrolet -GM. Well, you're 
depending upon the engineering professionality of the, 
of the factory engineers. So you, you go and you look 
up all the part numbers of what they used that year, 
you know, what kind of rods they used, what kind of rod 
cast* nuts, what kind of crank, you know, how it was 
balanced, you know, what heads. Then, you know, you 
build an engine to blueprints. 

If you're a professional engine builder, like 
Mike Bernard out here, which is one of the top circle 
track engine builders here locally, probably in the 
state, he's right out here near Elk, then he might have 
a winning engine, a combination that he knows, and he's 
got it blueprinted. In other words, he's got a 
blueprint of everything that he used to make that 


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engine . 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: So you might want to have an 

engine blueprinted to his motor. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: 'Cause, you know, when you're 

in high school you've got all these guys, you know, 
read too many hot rod magazines. "You all are going to 
need a pretty -- it's been blueprinted and balanced and 
everything." You know, most of all that is just -- 
really just an old regular 350 with a couple of power 
pack ends on them and a big fancy intake, and nothing's 
really set up for anything, you know. Loud mufflers. 
But, anyway, like I said, proficiency is something to 
give that I, I kind of went into the automotive 
spectrum just like I did in the athletic spectrum, and 
just, like I do in the Biblical spectrum. 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I mean, you know, God on that 

throne, he's proficient, he's perfect. Holy, holy, 
holy. And there's just these Seven Seals and it's a 
message of life and death. And as it was in the days 
of Noah, Christ said it'll be the days of son of man. 
When the son of man comes again to reveal the Seven 
Seals, you know what they'll be doing? Christ says 
they'll be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in 


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marriage. They'll be totally indifferent to the call, 
until the flood comes and takes them all away. 

Now, we don't want that to happen, you know. 
You know, there's people out there right now in America 
saying what is this nut? What Seven Seals? Right? 

And God is watching everybody -- saying what's he 
talking about, Seven Seals? You know what they're 
doing? They're going to their Bibles, right now, even 
while we speak. 

JOHN: Yeah, but, you know, a lot of people 

are saying in the churches around this country is when 
are you guys coming out of there. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. You know? And the 

thing of it is is that those who are mocking and those 
who are scoffing and those who don't have the decency 
to realize that we're human beings, too -- 
i JOHN: Um-hum. Well, I think -- 

DAVID KORESH: -- they are wrong. 

JOHN: No, that's their concern, that's their 

concern, that you are human beings, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. We're not bullet- 

proof . 

JOHN : That ' s right . 

DAVID KORESH: And the thing of it is is that 

if we're wrong, why don't they say hey, look, let me 


talk to 


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JOHN: Well, what if you're right? 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. If I'm right -- 

JOHN: What's going to change? 

DAVID KORESH: -- then we're safe and you're 

in danger, John. You need to come here right now. 

JOHN: Why don't you come on out here and 

save me? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, the thing of it is, come 

here and see -- Okay, I tell you, okay, come on in. 

JOHN: Hey, I don't want to come in there and 

eat those MRE's for three months. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, see. 

JOHN: I've had, I've had my share of C- 

rations and MRE's in my time. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, come on up hither and 

what we both can agree -- and, and, and open your Bible 
to Revelation 4, 5 and Chapter 6 and look at those 
Seven Seals and ask yourself an honest question. Do I 
know what these Seven Seals are? 

JOHN: I'll do that if you'll come out. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, even if I come out today 

or tomorrow, I suggest that for the sake of your own 
soul to look just to see what your mind tells you. 

It's something we're going to all have to deal with. 

JOHN: Couldn't hurt, right? 

DAVID KORESH: Because, you see, if you 


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believe in Matthew, if you believe in Mark -- 

JOHN: I've got, I've got a cousin named 

Matthew. I do. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, I'm sure you don't 

believe in him. 

JOHN: Well, yeah, I do. Yeah, he's -- 

DAVID KORESH: Do you believe in fish 

stories? 

JOHN: He's going to be a good guy when he 

gets a little older. 

DAVID KORESH: Do you believe in fish 

stories? 

JOHN: He's never told me a fish story. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, good. He's 

believable then. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

* 

1 DAVID KORESH: But -- 

JOHN: He's, he's a mountain kid from North 

Carolina. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, I've got some friends from 

North Carolina. 

JOHN: Whereabouts? 

DAVID KORESH: They're from Asheville. 

JOHN: Yeah, that's where he's from, that 

area. 


DAVID KORESH: And what's the other place 


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down there? 

JOHN: 

DAVID 

JOHN: 

other one? 

DAVID 

JOHN: 

sp. ) ? 

DAVID 

JOHN: 

DAVID 

JOHN: 

DAVID 

the west part. 

JOHN: 
DAVID 
* JOHN: 

DAVID 
JOHN: 
DAVID 

Charlottesville? 


13 


Wayne sville? 

KORESH: No, Asheville and -- 

Oh, there's -- What the heck's that 

KORESH : Where ' s - - 

Jonestown? Maggie Valley (phonetic 

KORESH: It's another town down south. 

Oh, south? 

KORESH: Yeah. 

Near the ocean? 

KORESH: No, it's, it's still towards 

Near Charlotte? 

KORESH: Charlotte, that's it. 

Okay, yeah. 

KORESH: Charlottesville. 

Oh, Charlottesville? 

KORESH: Yeah. That ain't 


JOHN: Charlotte is, is the biggest town 

there. We've got an office there. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay, that's Charlotte. Well, 


you're from North Carolina then, right? 
JOHN: NO, uh-uh. 


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DAVID KORESH: New York? 

JOHN: Upstate New York, yeah. I always, I 

always specify upstate New York 'cause I don't want to 
be tarred with that rush of being a city guy, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, I see. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, John -- 

JOHN: New York City's different. 

DAVID KORESH: You know, I sat with Robert 

Gonzalez for quite a while, you know, and I, I dealt 
with him as a, as a person to a person. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And, you know, I, I really 

liked the guy. I still like him. And I told Steve I 
can't believe that he allowed this to happen to us, you 
know, and I told him, I told him a lot of things and I 

f 

showed him a lot of things, you know. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And, and, and, you know, he 

was -- Well, he's supposed to be living with us right 
now. Of course, you know, that was, you know, that was 
something that never materialized, but, you know, he 
was already granted that he could come in and stay with 
the guys, you know, and stuff and, and have one of the 
rooms here. 


JOHN: Um-hum. 


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DAVID KORESH: 'Cause I told him, like I told 

everybody, there's a lot of statements made about me, a 
lot of inquiries. And I said, you know, there's 
nothing that I'm more pleased with than for someone to 
give me the opportunity to sit down and to tell and to 
show everything there is to know about me. I have 
nothing to hide. And what happened is is that I began 
to set down with Robert and I began to show him, and he 
was convicted ' cause he saw it right there in front of 
him. And, and you can tell when a person's convicted. 

And, of course, all along I knew he was an 
agent, too. So, you know, but that's beside the point. 
I have nothing to fear of agents and I have nothing to 
fear of anybody -- 

JOHN: Good. 

DAVID KORESH: -- in the system -- 

* 

•* JOHN: Come on out. 

DAVID KORESH: -- that's trying to, that's 

trying to, to uphold what they classify as law. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: What I, I have always had to 

be cautious of is the fact that injustice and tyranny 
have been since the beginning of time, and you know 
that from 2,000 years ago. 

JOHN : Um-hum . That ' s 


DAVID KORESH: That no matter how truthful a 


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person may be you can get crucified. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Now, you won't deny that 

point, will you? 

JOHN: No. Some people can, you know, if 

they don't get a good attorney. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, the thing of it is 

Christ didn't have to worry about an attorney, did he? 

JOHN: He didn't, he didn't make out too well 

that first night, but then he got them when he came 
back, right? 

DAVID KORESH: But the thing of it was is 

that his final judge was the Father. And what I'm 
trying to say is I'm trying to carry you a little 
further to say that on the cross it is stated clearly 
for all men to hear throughout all ages, Father, into 
thy hand I commit my spirit. And lo and behold, in the 
right hand of God there is the rest of the story, Seven 
Seals . 

JOHN: Oh, I thought you were going to say 

Paul Harvey. 

DAVID KORESH: And if those who hear me and 

who judge me according to their own perceptions, not 
knowing both sides of the story as of yet, and you 
admit that, if they -- 


JOHN: Well, nobody's going to hear both 


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sides of the story until you come out of there, man. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, that, that is true. 

JOHN: Right now, you know, I think that the 

public perceives you as being an ostrich with your head 
in the sand. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, you see, in the Psalms 

119, it says that great peace have they which love they 
law, and nothing shall offend them. 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Now, I have to admit that I 

was offended when I was accused of having drugs here, 
because that's just something that's, that's been 
repulsive since day one. And, and the thing of it is 
is they know that we don't have no drug labs here, and 
that was just something they had to use to cover their 

own rear ends because they illegally obtained those 

* 

helicopters. I mean, they actually had agents on those 
helicopters. They were trying to land on top of the 
roof, what that was all about. 

JOHN: Is that place that well built? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, sure it is. I mean, you 

know, the thing of it is they, they had -- you know, 
they would, they would jump off on the roof if the 
helicopter had gotten close enough. But -- 

JOHN: Oh, oh, they were going to jump on the 


roof instead of land on it? 


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DAVID KORESH: Well, no, the helicopter 

wouldn't have been able to -- Well, I don't know. No, 
the helicopter wouldn't have been able to land on the 
roof. The roof is slanted. But, you know, they've got 
those little ladder things, little things they throw 
out. But there are so many services all -- The roof is 
such a large place that, you know, somebody might try 
to land on the top of the roof. But, you know, and I'm 
sure everyone can honestly say that 

JOHN : You know one thing -- You know, you're 

talking about people's perception of you is wrong, you 
know, that some of the criticism you get -- 

DAVID KORESH: Well, not everybody. There's 

a lot of people -- 

JOHN: Well, not everybody. Obviously, the 

people in there. You know, what if, what if I joined 
your i cult, you know, what would happen to me? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, then you would -- when 

you came out, you'd have to sit in jail with us, 
wouldn't you? 

JOHN: If I -- No (laughing) . 

DAVID KORESH: You want to ask, you want to 

ask 

JOHN : Philosophically -- 

DAVID KORESH: Huh? 

JOHN: Well, it depends. I think if I went 


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in there now I probably wouldn't. I don't know, you 
know. Although I guess they're discouraging people 
going in there, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, others have -- 

JOHN; Let's say, let's say, you know, if 
this never happened, okay? Let's go back to ideology, 
okay, to a, to a time before this event occurred which 
caused this whole thing. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, okay. Okay. For 

instance, me and you are out fishing one day, right? 
And you see me read the Bible and you go what are you 
reading? 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: I go oh, the Seven Seals here. 

And you go what's that? I go well, do you believe in 
the Lord, Jesus Christ? You go oh, yeah, I go to 
churfch. I go well, there's something here more about 
Christ that is to reveal the latter days. What's that? 
So I'll go here, and I'll show you Revelation 4 and 5, 
that God sits on a throne. Must be hereafter. I mean 
something has to be. John said so. Otherwise, John's 
lying. And if John's a liar, you might as well throw 
out the gospel of John II, right? 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I mean, we don't want to be 


following no baloney heads here, you know. 


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JOHN: Right. Or salami heads, for that 

matter. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. You know? So, so 

what happens is you read it. Well, God sits on a 
throne here, he's the Lord of Lord and creator of all 
things and that he's got this book here that no one in 
heaven has wanted to open and look thereon. And all 
the angels are subject and everyone that's holy in 
heaven is subject to this, and, and the Father hands 
the book to the lamb and the lamb reveals these Seven 
Seals. And do you know what the Seven Seals are, John? 

Well, no, Dave, I, I, I don't. I say well, 
the first one here is a man on a white horse. He's got 
a crown and a bow. It's a symbol of something, isn't 
it? Well, right after the Seventh Seal is opened, 

there's these seven trumpets. Do you know what the 

* 

firsj trumpet is? No. Well, how about the seventh 
trumpet here? No. Well, okay. Well, here in Chapter 
10 here it says that this mighty angel comes to earth, 
he brings this book and he opens it up and the 
seven thunders are uttered. Well, remember here in 
Chapter 4 and 5, John, the seven thunders were the 
Seven Seals, the little book that was given to the 
lamb? 

Well, it's going to be revealed on earth. 

And the angel swears by the God who made all things 


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that when there's time no longer this mystery will be 
finished, as God declared to his servants, the 
prophets. I guess God must have told the prophets 
something about this book that we might have 
overlooked. Well, I wonder if Isaiah or Micah or 
Jeremiah or Ezekiel, Amos or Hosea, Obadiah or 
Zephaniah or Moses has something to eay about it. But 
anyway, so what happens is we see here in Chapter 11 
that there '8 this mystery of God. 

In Chapter 12, there's this woman in heaven 
who has a manchild who's to rule all nations and the 
child is called up to God to his throne. That's the 
lamb. And the devil was cast out. 

JOHN: Say you sold me on that and I say I 

want to learn more, okay? 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. So then here you are, 

youire saying well, hey, man, this is, this is really 
neat. I didn't realize this. My church never taught 
me this. I said well, there's probably a reason for 
it. Most people when they read the Book of Revelation 
can't understand it. That's why they call it 
apocryphal. They say, you know, apocalyptic, it's 
something which is the future and always future. 

And -- But I say eventually the future becomes probably 
now. I mean, for, you know, for, for 3500 years the 
prophets spoke and finally Christ came. 


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JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: But, of course -- 

JOHN: Then what happens? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, so then what happens is 

is that I say well, look here in Chapter 22. Jesus 
says right here I Jesus sent mine angel to testify to 
do these things in the churches. 

JOHN: Okay. 

DAVID KORESH: So Jesus sent his angel to 

John and John wrote down what the, what the angel 
showed him to write. So I says now, look here, Jesus 
says behold, I come quickly and my reward is with me to 
give to every man, according as their work shall be. I 
go well, you know, John, your work in life is to make a 
living. You're under America, this great nation, 
you've been given liberties above any other nation. 

t 

You £now, there's just something missing in our gospel 
that was recently found in the gospel of Matthew, Mark, 
Luke, and John. But, of course, we can only do what we 
can do. 

John, how would you like to learn the Seven 
Seals? Oh, well, yeah. But, John, you've got to 
realize that only those who are true Christians can 
learn the Seven Seals. What do you mean, Dave? First 
of all, the whole New Testament tells us that by faith 
we are saved. We've got to believe that God sits on a 


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throne. There's got to be something more. We've got 
to believe that the day will come when a jury will be 
called together and God will ask one question in 
heaven, and it's not going to be how many sins you 
committed or how many sins your brothers committed. 

There's only one question God's going to ask, 
and that is who's worthy to open this mystery, a book, 
a revelation of Christ that God gives to him? In the 
book of John the Apostle, John states over and over 
that Jesus said to Sanhedrin of Pharisees, my doctrine 
is not my own, but my Father who sent me. He that 
believeth on me as the scriptures say it, out of him 
shall flow waters of living water. All through the 
Book of John, Christ keeps referring that he can do of 
himself nothing but what the Father allows him to do. 

So on the cross, you've got to acknowledge 

4 

that! Jesus died because of our ignorance, because of 
our ignorance. Father, forgive them for they know not 
what they do. He knew the prophecies, he knew when his 
work was 

JOHN : So, Dave, say okay, I want, I want to 

join the program. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. So then I go well, 

John, let me show you something here. See here in the 
Book of Revelation Christ says he has the key of David, 
only he can open it and none can shut. You know David 


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was a king and he was a prophet, and David of Old was 
given visions about his son. God promised David that 
out of his seed God would sit upon his throne in 
heaven. So I take you to Psalms 40. I go look at this 
psalm. 

JOHN: Yeah. Well, what do I do physically 

to get in the program? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, you -- Nothing yet. 

JOHN: Oh, okay. 

DAVID KORESH: Herein your soul shall live, 

Isaiah says. All the prophets talk about the 
importance of listening. Here, let us reason together, 
God says. I'll make an everlasting covenant with 
you -- mercies of David. Okay, so you're sitting there 
listening. Why? Because you have an interest in 
Christ . You have an interest in someone who loves you 
so mpch that they would come and, by the power of God, 
keep the law, fulfill the law, and die and forgive you. 
Now, this is intriguing. 

Christ says no greater love of man known but 
that his brother lay down his life for him. This 
intrigues man, such selflessness. Selflessness. Okay. 
Very easy to believe that it is acted upon. We're all 
selfish, but not Christ. So here Christ promises to 
give as a reward a revelation of himself that only he 
can reveal. So I take you to Psalms 40 and I go now, 


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look at here, here's a psalm -- 

JOHN: When do I get my toothbrush and 

jammies and come over, though? I mean, how does that 
work? I'm trying to get a feel for, you know, what you 
live like and -- 


DAVID KORESH: Look, the thing of it is is 

that faith comes by hearing, hearing by the word of 
God. 


JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And all we're doing while 

we're fishing there this one afternoon is we're just 
simply talking about the word of God. Now, you may say 
well, now, Dave, this is something to think about. 

Wait a minute. I've had enough. I'd like to go home 
and read Revelation 4 and 5 for myself. And I'll say 
well, that's fine, that's good. Would you like my 

t 

telephone number? And you say well, sure, that won't 
hurt. And I go well, if you have any questions, just 
give me a call. And so we just finish fishing. I 
won't mention nothing more about it. 

So you go home where you have no outward 
influences and you read Revelation 4 and 5 for 
yourself. Hmmmm, you know that Dave was right. Huh. 
This must be hereafter. This is something that has to 
happen before the end of the world. That's right. 

It's a revelation of Christ. God gave us a book with 


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seven -- And it's, it's sealed and it won't be revealed 
till there's time no longer. I'm going to call that 
Dave guy up. Ring, ring. Dave? Hello, John. Oh, 
you're still interested in those seals, huh? 

Yeah, Dave. I want to know if I can bring my 
toothbrush over. No, you can't bring your toothbrush 
over yet. You don't know if we, if we know anything 
about it . You need to go ask your preacher and your 
teachers to show you the seals and see what they say 
about it. Give yourself a fair opportunity to really 
exercise your own mind, because, you know, John, to be 
honest with you, you've got a mind. God gave you a 
mind and God gave you a wisdom. And if you're going to 
be saved, you're going to do it. 

No one is going to save you. No, not even 

God. God has done his work. God has a book, God has a 

* 

trutji, and you've seen it. And if you are going to be 
saved, you're going to be saved because you want to see 
it. Now, I will show you what I have to show you, but 
you will be the one that will decide whether you want 
to see it or not. Well, Dave, I want to see if you 
know these seals. Okay, you've got to be honest with 
me then. Is God sitting on the throne? That's what 
the Bible says. 

Okay. Then you don't really know for sure, 
you just know what the scriptures say. Well, right. 


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m. • , 

Okay. Did he give the book to the lamb? That's what 
the Bible says. Okay. I am honest with you. That's 
honest . That ' s what I require , you ' ve got to be 
honest. You don't really know if what John says is 
true or not, you just know what it says, and that -- 
JOHN: The Book of John? 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. And the Revelation. 

You see? John wrote the Revelation, too, as well as 
the Gospel of John. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: So, in other words, you know, 

I'm, I'm taking you straight down to the brass tacks. 
JOHN: Okay. 

DAVID KORESH: Now, we're just simply 

admitting that that's what John said. John says he saw 

God sitting on the throne and John says he saw God give 

* 

the Jpook to the lamb. John says he saw the lamb open 
the Seven Seals, but he never told us what the meaning 
was. And John says he saw when there's time no longer 
this mystery will be finished, and John said Jesus said 
he was going to come and bring this reward. That's 
what John said. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: All right. Now, I'm saying 

what you're saying. You're saying that that's what 
John said and I agree with you, okay, I agree with you. 


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John. And, so far, I can see that you're an honest 
person. All right. Now, John, if you'll look in 
Psalms 40, you'll find that somebody says I waited 
patiently on the Lord, he inclined to me and heard my 
cry. He brought me up out of a horrible pit and out of 
miry clay and set my feet upon rock and established my 
going. He put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto 

our God. Many shall see it and fear it and shall trust 

in the Lord. Offering this sacrifice God did not 
desire. Burnt offering and sin offering, God does not 
require it. Then said I lo, I come, in the volume of 
the book it is written of me. 

And I'll say now, John, in that psalm who do 
you know that was delivered out of a horrible pit, out 
of the miry clay? Do you know of anybody that was 
crucified and put into a tomb? Do you know of anybody 
that/ was delivered and taken up to heaven and placed 
upon a rock? Is not God a rock in the Book of 

Revelation? Did not God give to the lamb a book and 

when Christ comes it'll be in the volume of that book 
it's written of him? 

You go well, Psalms 40, yeah, and it is 
written of him. Exactly. It's a revelation that God 
gave to him so it could be strictly by the book. Is 
not Psalms 40 a revelation of Jesus Christ? It's got 
to be. He's the only one that was taken to heaven, and 


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comes in the volume of the book it's written of him. 
How'd you know that, Dave? Well, in Psalms 2 -- Now, 
see. I'll start showing you -- 

JOHN: 'Cause you can read, right? 

DAVID KORESH: Yeah. In other words, I'll 

start showing you that there's 150 psalms and every 
psalm is connected 100 percent to that vision of 
Revelation 4 and 5. You see? So like in Psalms 11, 
when it says the wicked bend their bow that they may 
shoot at the upright in secret, it says if the 
foundation be destroyed what can the righteous do? It 
says God's throne is in heaven, God's throne is set for 
judgment, and it begins to tell you every reason why 
God sits on that throne, how he's going to judge the 
world by his truth. 

In Psalms 1 when it says that you're blessed, 
if you love the law of God you'll be like a tree 
planted by the waters. Otherwise, you won't stand in 
his judgment. His judgment is the revelation of 
Christ. In Psalms 2, it says the heat of the rage when 
Christ comes to reveal the seals, and he that sits in 
the heaven shall laugh at them and the Lord will have 
them in confusion. And then will he speak to them in 
his wrath and vex them in his sore displeasure. They 
end up angering God, and that's what opens the Sixth 
Seal. I mean, Psalms 4, look at Psalms 4. 


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Very clearly, who is that person? Oh, yea 
sons of men, how long will you turn my glory into 
shame? How long will you love vanity and seek after 
leasing? But he tries to tell them, but know that the 
Lord is set apart him that is godly for himself; the 
Lord will hear when I call unto him. Now, who has God 
set apart from all of heaven that's godly for himself? 
Christ. Now, when you read Psalms 89, oh, that's a 
beautiful psalm. This is one that makes people -- 
makes their mouth drop open. You know why? 

Because it tells you clearly that God takes 
Christ, the seed of David, to heaven, exalts him, 
honors him all before heaven. And you know what it 
says it's going to do to Christ? After Christ is taken 
to heaven and exalted, it says that God will cast his 

crown down to the ground and that God will cause this 

* 

throjm to be cast down to the ground. 

JOHN: Let's say if I answer that, when do I 

join the club? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, see, what happens is as 

you begin to learn these truths you begin to understand 
why it says that thou God has made all of his enemies 
to rejoice. God's brought his strongholds to ruin. 

All that passed by the way is spoilen, he's a reproach 
to his neighbors that's made all his enemies to 
rejoice. Now, people call this a compound. I thought 


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a compound was a place with a fence, isn't it? 

JOHN: I, I - - You know, that's up to 

interpretation . 

DAVID KORESH: Well, no -- 

JOHN: I wondered about that, too, you know. 

What can we call it, a dude ranch? 

DAVID KORESH: Call it, call it a big house. 

JOHN : I don ' t know . When can I come and 

live at the big house under this scenario that we're 
working? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, the thing of it is, you 

know -- 

JOHN: Let's say I show a lot of curiosity 

and get my interest peaked. I buy into the program. 

You know, what's the mechanism? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, what'll happen is is 

* 

that* first of all, naturally, you're not going to do 
that as a person, which is natural. You know, you're 
going to say, you're going to 6ay wow, man, this man, 
Dave, this is a lot of information. Where' d you learn 
all this? And I'm going to say don't worry about that, 
just take it home, write the text down and review it 
and bring your questions to me. 

JOHN: Okay. 

DAVID KORESH: And then you're going to study 

Psalms 89 a little more thoroughly and you're going to 


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realize hey, this prophecy shows that after Christ is 
taken to heaven and his throne is established as a 
memorial in heaven that the Father's going to cast him 
back down to the ground. And, of course, when he comes 
in the volume of the Book you'll find out that while 
he's trying to reveal the seven seals no one's going to 
accept him but a few people. 

JOHN: Um -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: So then you're going to -- 

JOHN: Let's say I'm one of those people, 

okay? 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, then what'll 

happen is is that if you say Dave, I want to know more 
really what the first seal is. I go okay, now, in 
Psalms 45 there is the first seal in the key of David. 

I'll gb now, look, you wonder about earthquakes and 

* 

tornadoes, you wonder about all the disasters of this 
world. And I'll say now, remember, one time God 
brought Israel out of Egypt but their hearts were not 
with God and they chose their own ways . They wanted to 
live like the heathens. I'll go now, look, when you 
come up hither, God's a rock. That's what he appears 
to be, hard, immovable, unchangeable. 

But he's got a revelation of Jesus Christ 


which he wants his son to reveal, right? So in Psalms 
45, you'll find that what is said, my heart is inditing 


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a good matter. I speak of the things which I have 
made, touching the king. My tongue is the pen of a 
ready writer. I'll tell you, I'll say now, John, 
you're looking at a revelation of God. God wants to 
talk about his son. God wants to talk about the things 
he has made. He's the creator, touching his king. 

And he says my tongue is the pen of a ready 
writer. Now, what Psalms 45 reveals is that whatever 
God wants to say about his king, he put it in a book. 
God claims to be the author of the Bible. God claims 

that he spake in times past by his servants the 

prophets and required that his word be written down, 
just like in Psalms 45, as the mystery of God, this 
revelation of Christ, is to be revealed by his servants 

the prophets. So you'll be saying wow, that's right. 

And he says about the king, he says thou art fairer to 

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the ^children of men. So I'll ask you, is Christ fairer 
to children of men? Yes. 

Grace is poured into thy lips, therefore God 
has blessed thee forever. So I'll ask you, when Christ 
receives the book, the Seven Seals, when he comes will 
he teach the Seven Seals? Well, yes. And all those 
who learn the Seven Seals will receive grace. Well, 
then it says gird thy sword upon my thigh, oh, most 
mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. I'll ask you a 
question. Did Christ receive glory and majesty by 


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heaven? Did all of heaven bow before him? Yes. 

And in that majesty ride prosperously because 
of truth. Now, I'll say now, John, when the Father 
gave the lamb the book, doesn't it say in the first 
seal he's going to ride a white horse, conquering and 
to conquer? Will he not ride prosperously? Is it not 
the truth of the book, the first seal? Is that truth 
not found in Psalms 45? Then you'll realize very 
clearly, wow. Psalms 45 is the very words that the 
first seal contains. 

The first seal in Revelation is a preview to 
the prophecy of Psalms 45. But the part of salvation 
is this. It says upon thy right hand must stand the 
queen in gold of O'phir. Harken, oh, daughter and 
consider and incline thine ear; forget thou people and 
thy father's house; so shall the king greatly desire 
thy beauty for he is thy lord and worship thou him. 

Now, in Revelation 19, you'll find out that after the 
fall of Babylon the saints in heaven, they're praising 
God and they say for the marriage of the lamb has come 
and his wife has made herself ready. 

Now, it says God said right, these words are 
faithful and true. Blessed is he which is called to 
the marriage supper of the lamb. Now, Psalms 45 is the 
prophecy about the lamb getting married. That's the 
first seal. It's a party. It's a party that joins the 


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minds of men to the mind of God. It reveals the 
secrets of the intent of God. And right there in 
Revelation 19 John says and I behold, lo, a white 
horse. And he that sit upon him was called faithful 
and true. And in righteousness, he does judge and make 
war. And it says here the name that no one knows but 
himself, his name's the word of God. 

And, of course, naturally, what, is David 
Koresh any different than Vernon Howell or Paul Smith 
or John Denver, right? It's just another name. 

JOHN: John Denver was a very successful 

musician. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. But when you see 

Psalms 45, that it is the same prophecy as what 
Revelation 6, 1 and 2 speaks of in the symbol of the 
first seal, then you'll understand why in Revelation 19 
thatiit's an invitation for you to learn about a 
marriage of the lamb. And those who learn are blessed 
because they're beginning to learn the mystery of God 
that God has chosen to conceal from the sons of men 
until the latter days. Mercy and truth shall go before 
his face. Righteousness and judgment are the 
habitation of his throne. And then you'll learn all 
150 psalms, and at that time you'll say man, this is 
unbelievable. What's the second seal, Dave? Then I'll 
show you Zechariah. 


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JOHN: Does this not have anything to do with 

the Ten Commandments? 

DAVID KORESH: You see, the Ten Commandments 

are God's standard of righteousness. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: But in the Book of Romans, 

Paul says that now the righteousness of God is 
revealed, being witnessed without the law. 

JOHN: So forget the Ten Commandments? 

DAVID KORESH: No. On the contrary. You are 

to see the Ten Commandments and realize how righteous 
they are. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: But who only keeps the Ten 

Commandments? Only God. 

JOHN: They aren't that applicable then to 

man?'i 


DAVID KORESH: Wait a minute, though. But 

they are. Paul says the law was revealed so that sin 
might be seen for what it is. It's terrible. That 
every mouth might be shut and that all the world might 
become guilty before God. 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Fine. So that you can see 

Christ is the law, he is the Ten Commandments. But he 
doesn't condemn anybody. Just being around Christ 


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makes us aware of how short we are in regards to him. 
But the love of Christ is the commandment that gives 
the fulfillment by saying Father, forgive them for they 
know not what they do. And by his spirit being put to 
the right hand of God, those who look to Christ for 
righteousness are already convicted of the law. But in 
Christ, we find love and forgiveness and forbearance, 
not only given to -- of God, but we also share it with 
one another. 

So that by the prophecy, Peter says through 
Christ we receive great and precious promises, which 
are the prophecies, that by these promises you may be a 
partaker of his divine nature. Keeping the law is 
something that God is going to fulfill in every one of 
us who follow the truth, continuing in the doctrine of 
Christ. It's a free gift. No man, by the words of the 
lawrf can be justified by the law, because in trying to 
keep the law we break it. What can I say? I'm sorry. 
And you can say to me I'm sorry. Why? Because Christ 
has forgiven us all through his love that he had for 
us. 

Therefore, there's only two commandments, 
love God and love thy neighbor as thyself. So if any 
man does sin against you, not willfully 'cause those 
who follow Christ don't want to sin willfully, it's a 
spiritual thing. You don't want to willfully lie to 


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• •' • > 

your wife, do you? Or commit adultery or kill or 
murder or steal or take God's name in vain. There's a 
big difference in God trying to show you that according 
to your human nature, born under the flesh, you are 
naturally by nature going to be a sinner. And God says 
I don't condemn you for that, but I have to clarify it 
so you realize the importance of learning the truth. 

Without the truth, you'll never receive the 
promises of God in his power to redeem you for his own 
namesake. So, you'll learn, for instance, like Psalms 
31, where Christ got that, into thy head I commit my 
spirit. You'll learn all 150 psalms. You'll say man, 
this is, this is something -- I didn't know the psalms 
were prophecies about Christ and the way he thinks and 
his work and his mission and the opposition he's going 
to receive. I didn't know Psalms 18, how that God's 
going to have to deliver him because the world's not 

i 

going to want to hear the truth. I didn't realize the 
merchants and the great men and that people can't 
endure this truth because they make money off of a 
false gospel which is not found in God. 

Then you'll learn the second seal, why 
Zechariah says that there's a rock with seven eyes and 
God's the one who engraves the writing thereof. Well, 
you know God's the rock and he wrote Seven Seals. 

You'll know why Zechariah says that God will remove the 


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iniquity of that land in one day, the importance of the 
seals. And there's a candlestick with seven lamps 
thereon. You'll learn the meaning of why the lamb had 
seven eyes, which are the eyes of the Lord. 

Seven Seals, seven eyes, seven lights, seven 
truths, all complete for the seventh day Sabbath, the 
memorial of God's word. Then you'll learn the third 
seal. You'll learn the Book of Hosea, what his tale 
is, about the Lord being a merchant man. You'll learn 
all the entailment of Isaiah 28, the Book of Ezekiel, 
why the fourth seal whose name is death, and hell 
follows. It's nothing about what it appears. This 
is 

JOHN : We were talking about country music. 

Do you like Willie Nelson? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, "Blue Eyes Crying in the 

f 

Rairt, " I mean, you know -- 

JOHN: Have you heard "Seven Spanish Angels"? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, I don't remember that 

one. 

JOHN: Seven reminds me of -- You'd probably 

like that one. 

DAVID KORESH: But, see, then all of a sudden 


you'll, you'll say to me Dave, I've learned so much. I 
want to know all this. And I'll go well, now you know 
why people come from all over the world and why I've 


40 


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got such a big house and if you really want to know the 
mystery, if you really want the seal of the 144,000, 
which is the seal, the living God, there's only one 
living God, he has only one book, there's only one 
revelation of Christ, there's only one Seven Seals. 
That's what separates the 144,000 from everybody else 
in the world, the love of the truth. 

JOHN: So then I can come and live there? 

DAVID KORESH: Yeah. 

JOHN: Okay. Let's say I do. How do I live 

there? In other words, do I get assigned a room or 
what? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, if, if you're single or 

if you're married --It depends on whether you're 
married or single. 

JOHN: Married. 

* 

i DAVID KORESH: Okay, you're married. Well, 

then you'll have to be having the rooms where the guys 
and the girls live together. You'll get a room to 
yourself . 

JOHN: Oh, I do get a room to myself? 

DAVID KORESH: Yeah. 

JOHN: Okay. Just my wife and I? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, you got kids? 

JOHN: Yeah, but they're -- they'd be in 

school, you know, they're off in college. 


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DAVID KORESH: Oh. Well, okay, then you'd be 

just your wife and yourself. Then I have to worry 
about all the hell I'm going to get from them. Mom, 
Dad, what are you doing? A cult? This is weird. 

What's wrong with you? 

JOHN: No, the heck with them, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, see, then all of a 

sudden they call the AT -- I mean they call the FBI up 
and give all these wild stories. 

JOHN: Okay. How much, how much choice of 

decor do I have, though? If my wife wants pink in her 
room and I want blue, how do you settle that? You 
know, like you're the manager, right? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, no. What happens is 

when you're allotted that room, you'll, you'll have 
your access to your funds and your accounts and 
everything and, and, you know, like I say, it's just 
like any other decent thing. If you want to learn the 
Seven Seals -- 
(End of Tape 218) 


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U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY 
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO & FIREARMS 


i 


TAPE #219 
4/13/93 

3:26 a.m. - 4:13 a.m. 


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(Tape 219 ) 


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DAVID KORESH: -- walls, and things like 

that, and you're going to be able to fix up the room to 
your capacity of what you want. 

JOHN: Do -- does she and I get a bath? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, you're going to have to 

find out that that's all in the process of time, 
because originally you would have, if we was out in 
California -- but we got raided one Sabbath day and so 
we had to move to a different place 'cause we found out 
it was against the law to have a church service in your 
home in California. 

JOHN: Really? In California? 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Exactly. 

JOHN: Shoot, I thought in California you 

could do anything you want. 

i DAVID KORESH: Na-uh. So, finally, what 

happened was is the group that had come from Hawaii 
originally, they said we've been through this process 
since day one. We all came together and people came 
from overseas and stuff and we built this place up from 
scratch and we built it up for the last two years and 
we've, we tried to add to it and add to it and it's not 
totally finished, and we've had to work against rain 
and everything and we've done it and we've not -- to 


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the capacity we wanted to, but we made it comfortable 
and we had to make a lot of modifications. And someone 
from the outside, not knowing why we're doing this, is 
going to say -- my, this room here sure is small. And 
I say well, why don't you get your money and go out 
here and build you a room out in the back the way you 
want it? 

JOHN: Well, let me, let me ask you this. 

DAVID KORESH: So, you see, you'll find out 

once you get more answers, that the situation has been 
a necessity, not according to our carnal desires or our 
wills, but the necessity of having a place for people 
to come. Okay, for instance, like Scott and them -- 
built a room for themselves. And all of a sudden a 
bunch of people came, people from overseas. Well, what 
are we going to do, put them in the hallway? 

j JOHN: This is -- let me ask you a managerial 

problem. Let's say I came initially, okay? And then, 
you know, I asked my wife to come later on. I would 
live, you know -- where would I live if I came 
initially? 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, like Robert Gonzalez? 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: Robert liked Scott a lot, so. 


he'd probably room with Scott. 


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JOHN: Okay, so room with somebody. Then 

when she comes, what, what would happen? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, then by that time, you 

would be fully informed and stuff and arrangements 
would probably be made to where you have to have your 
room built to your degree. And then when you start 
learning more and more and more seals, then all of a 
sudden you're going to learn more and more and more 
what the full plan is. And there might be 
modifications . 

JOHN: But would -- 

DAVID KORESH: Well, it's just like people 

say I get all the wives. David gets all the 
cigarettes, David gets all the booze, David is screwing 
all the women. 

JOHN: Do you smoke, David? 

J DAVID KORESH: Yes, I smoke. 

JOHN: What brand? 

DAVID KORESH: Marlboro Lights. 

JOHN: Yesl Common ground, okay. (Laughs) 

I didn't mean to be over-enthused there. Go ahead. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, why do I smoke, though? 

I never smoked for years. 


JOHN: I don't know. 

DAVID KORESH: I smoke for a reason that you 


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would not probably think would be a reason. 

JOHN: Hit me. Maybe I've got another 

excuse . 

DAVID KORESH: Well, again that goes into 

some doctrine in regards to something that -- like I 
say, it's all in the seals. And it's very clear and 
very obvious. Hosea was committed to marrying two 
prostitutes in his day because God wanted to emphasize 
that God, being a God of Israel and Judea, they were 
prostitutes in the light of the world. They were 
giving their intention and their spirits to the world 
and they were not adhering to God. But yet, they were 
wanting God to give them all the blessings. So Judea 
and Israel had, had split it up as a nation. 

JOHN: Well, let me just ask you a question 

flat out. I've got a very young, very attractive wife. 
If she came in there, would you try to nail her? 

DAVID KORESH: Absolutely not. 

JOHN: Okay. I had to clear the air on that 

one , you know . 

DAVID KORESH: Well, see -- 

JOHN: I want to walk in there with my eyes 

open , you know . 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Now, the thing of it 

is -- okay, here's the question, would you try to nail 


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her? Absolutely not. The Bible teaches -- in the 
world thou shall not commit adultery. Now, remember, 
there is seven seals. Now, remember, in Revelation 14 
that group of people are revealed to the degree of what 
Revelation states it to be, but the details are found 
in the writings of the prophets. When it says these 
are they which were not defiled with women, for they 
are virgins -- right? What happens is the question is 
naturally going to arise -- why are they virgins? What 
- - they never, they never was with a woman before? 
That's not what the prophets teach. Now, the church 
says well, they're spiritual virgins, and that's 
perfectly appliable, but the real truth is is that if a 
person can't show you the first seal, then he can't 
show you the second and he can't show the third or the 
fourth or the fifth or the sixth or the seventh. Every 
sealj entails clearly what God is going to do and why 
he's going to do it. You see? 

JOHN: Um- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: So you don't, you don't 

destroy somebody or push a theory down somebody. Let 
me tell you about how there's this cult awareness 
group, okay? 

JOHN: Is, is cult a bad, a bad term to you, 

to call your group a cult? Is that -- 


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DAVID KORESH: Not to me. 

JOHN: Okay. So it's all right? 

DAVID KORESH: But -- no, well, let me 

explain. But it's one of those many terms that are 
used to make merchandise of me. You see, I’m not to be 
advertised pro or con. No one can come to me and say 
oh, wow, man, I know this guy David Koresh, man he's 
awesome, he's great, he's -- my students never do that. 
In Matthew 24, it's very clearly stated, very clearly 
-- After those days, if any shall say unto you behold, 
Christ is in the desert, go not forth. Or Christ is in 
a secret chamber, you know, he's hiding, right? He's 
hid. Believe it not. You see, no man can tell you who 
Christ is. Nobody. And a true disciple of Christ 
would never go against Christ's word. Christ states 
on, "Fdr as the lightning shines out of the east even 
to fjhe west that's pretty, that's pretty obvious, 

isn't it? 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: "So, also, shall the coming of 

the son of man be." It's so obvious nobody can 
counterfeit it. "For wheresoever the carcass is, there 
will be the eagles gathered together." 

JOHN: So, so if I, if I join up, I can keep 


my wife with me? 


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DAVID KORESH: Exactly. You have to walk in 

the light as the light is enfolded to you. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: That's why everybody that 

first comes to learn the seals, I always send them 
away. You see, what I know is going to benefit you 
nothing . 

JOHN: That's a, that's a sales kind of 

thing, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: I wrote the -- 

JOHN: Show them something then take it back 

-- you don't really want this, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: No, no, no. 

JOHN: That's good salesmanship. 

DAVID KORESH: No, what it is -- 

JOHN: You'd make a heck of a car salesman, 

by tjie way. 

DAVID KORESH: What it is, is it is the 

requirement of God for people not to be joined by 
flatteries. 

JOHN: You know to be an effective preacher 

or anything, you have to be a salesman. There's, 
there's nothing wrong with being a salesman, you know? 
It's not a derogatory term. The world revolves around 
salesmen. 


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DAVID KORESH: Hey, what do I need to do to 

to sell you -- 

JOHN: Was Jesus a salesman? Was Jesus a 

salesman? 

DAVID KORESH: What do I need to sell you 

toilet paper? 

JOHN: Huh? 

DAVID KORESH: What do I need to sell you 

toilet paper? 

JOHN: If I need it. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Okay. 

JOHN: Unless you've got something better 

than toilet paper, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, God sits on a throne. 

You need that and you need the knowledge of those 
seals. 

JOHN: Well, I'm curious, you know, as a, as 

i 

a potential member. Did other people give up their 
wives? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, did they? 

JOHN: That was my question. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, why would you ask me 

that? 

JOHN: 'Cause I'm curious about it, you know. 


It's just like -- 


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DAVID KORESH: And you're curious about it 

because 

JOHN : It's like any -- because I've got you 

on the phone. I've got David Koresh to talk to and I 
want, you know, I'm curious. You know, I want to hear 
it from you. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. 

JOHN: You talked about people spreading 

rumors 

DAVID KORESH: Let's look behind the -- 

let's look behind the curtain, John. 

JOHN: Yes, all right. 

DAVID KORESH: Behind the curtain 

JOHN : You know, let me, let me say this. 

DAVID KORESH: -- there is a bunch of 

negotiators who are reading newspapers -- 
JOHN: I don't see that many. 

DAVID KORESH: -- who say to the whole public 

on the outside -- he's got all the women. 

JOHN: Oh, the heck with that. 

DAVID KORESH: He's got all the -- 

JOHN: You know, I'm just curious about, 

about the, the living conditions, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. 

JOHN: And let's put it this way. Let's say, 


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okay, in this scenario I'm applying as a member, okay? 

I talked about bringing the wife and so forth. When 
you buy a car or whatever, don't you inquire as to, you 
know, what's the gas mileage? 

DAVID KORESH: You drive it. 

JOHN: Or, you know, if you go to a motel or 

something, don’t you look at the room or do you just 
take it on face value and -- you know, anything you do, 
a man would be silly to go into something blind, right? 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. 

JOHN: And you're telling me that you open 

people's eyes before you allow them to -- 

DAVID KORESH: Do you drink Coca Cola? 

JOHN: Do I drink Coca Cola? 

DAVID KORESH : Yeah . 

JOHN: On occasion. 

I DAVID KORESH: This is the way I teach a lot 

of skeptical people. I say now, look, I'm going to 
reveal something to you. I'm going to reveal to you a 
can of Coca Cola. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I go now, what does this say? 

And I hold up the can of Coca Cola in front of them. 
They go well, what's your point? What does it say? It 
says Coca Cola. And I'll read the bottling plant and 


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all that on it. 

JOHN: Urn-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I go now, this looks like a 

Coca Cola in all obvious realities, but there's only 
one acid test. I pop the top, I hand it to them. I go 
you experience it. And, of course, they take a sip and 
I go now, what is that? 

JOHN: Fructose, corn syrup. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. 

JOHN: Caramel color, phosphoric acid, real 

flavors and caffeine. 

DAVID KORESH: So they go well, this is a 

Coca Cola. I go exactly. The experience is based upon 
the perceptions of previous experience. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: That is the only way -- 

i JOHN: It's the real thing. 

DAVID KORESH: -- truth of God is imparted. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Now, you're asking me 

questions based upon your perceptions brought to 
attention by accusations. 

JOHN: In other words, you have to see things 

to be 


DAVID KORESH: So, in other words, to make 


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sure that you are receiving your doctrine from God, 
from within -- 

JOHN: In other words, people have to be 

shown, right? 

DAVID KORESH: In other words, people have to 

be shown beyond shadows of the doubt . Now - - 

JOHN: Well, let me ask you something, aside 

from this. Have you ever seen a baby pigeon? 

DAVID KORESH: Only -- as a matter of fact, I 

don ' t think I have . 

JOHN: I never have. That freaks me out. It 

just freaks me out. Every city I've ever been in has 
pigeons. I've never seen a baby pigeon. Ever. I've 
even been around people that raise, you know, carrier 
pigeons that fly around, you know, the competition. 

I've never seen a baby pigeon. That freaks me out. 

i DAVID KORESH: I've never seen one in a book. 

JOHN: No, I haven't either. Well, go ahead. 

Just wondered. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. So now, when you read 

the writings of Paul, Paul is talking about marriage 
and Paul says that those who do marry sin not, for man 
cannot condemn himself. It's better to marry than to 
burn. Paul condemns self -abuse, Paul condemns 
fornication, and Paul condemns adultery. Very clearly. 


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Before we can learn about grace and mercy and truth, 
we've got to first learn the law. Paul says the law is 
our schoolmaster. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: You see, my father --my 

stepdad taught me the law -- don't do what I do, do 
what I say. And the force of that law was the penalty. 
And the joy of that law was the freedom obtained by 
obedience. He told me not to drink milk out of the 
jug, okay? 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Or water. But, of course, me 

and my brother would, you know, our hallway was right 
down -- it looked straight down into the kitchen and 
the icebox was right down there in the kitchen, at the 
end of the long hallway there. 

T 

j JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And we'd see him at 11:00 at 

night in his robe, standing at the icebox door with the 
milk jug straight up and down, guzzling milk right out 
of the jug. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: So after a while I began to 

ask him later on -- Daddy, how come you would always 
come by and drink milk out of the jug but you wouldn't 


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let us? And he'd look at us and he'd say -- because I 
am Daddy-0 and what I do is what I do. When you grow 
up and when you have kids and when you pay the bills, 
you will do what you want to do, and your kids will do 
what you tell them to do, which I don't abide by those 
rules, but I can see the wisdom in it. 

Okay. Now, when I was a kid I had a playpen 
to keep me restrained. I could crawl, I could walk a 
little, but there were certain things that I had no 
business involved with. Interest, curiosity killed the 
cat. So my liberties were limited by the confinement 
of my perimeters. My parents ordained a law for me. 

But then 

JOHN : Normal, isn't it? 

DAVID KORESH: And as I began to grown and 

began to learn, that law was taken away, and I could 
walk/here and walk there. But penalties began to be 
enacted because when I did break the glass or when I 
did break the coffee table, I was punished with 
understanding that I had been forewarned. When I did 
get in the cookie jar and broke the lid off of it, 
penalties. But still, I was not under the original 
law. 

Finally, in the backyard I was allowed to 
play in the backyard, and my backyard was fenced. I 


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was at liberty in my perimeter, a far larger perimeter, 
but I knew I was not supposed to climb the fence. 

JOHN: You were 

DAVID KORESH: Huh? 

JOHN: -- going through the imprinting stage. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. And, finally, my 

liberties were in the front yard without the fence. 

And, finally, I was allowed to go, with permission, 
into my next door neighbor's yard and to visit with my 
friends and rules similar, 'or not so similar, applied 
in their house. Respect the parents. Finally, those 
laws were removed and I was allowed to go throughout my 
neighborhood. And, finally, the day came with the 
bicycles and the motorcycle, whatever, I could go 
around town. 

And, finally, it came to the point where I 

t 

could go out of state. I could go around the world. 

But in every aspect of maturity and development, the 
law never really changed. For my safety and for my 
protection, the laws of culture, even reasoning, 
liberty and restraint, were always based in the wisdom 
of what I need to do to protect my freedom. If I went 
to a foreign country, there were principles that I had 
to abide by. Okay. 


Finally, the maturity of complying to all of 


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these laws finally begins to make us wonder how do laws 
really govern the universe? So when you come up hither 
and the door is open to every man's mind to see what 
must be hereafter, the Book of Revelation. We see that 
in Christ, though we might keep the laws of God, the 
laws of men may condemn us. But Christ is free by God 
and in heaven the Father has the law. Isaiah says, 
Harken to me that seek after the righteousness. You 
who seek the Lord, look to the rock whereby you're 
hewn. God is that great rock, sits on a throne. So 
look to the pit from which you're dug. For behold a 
law shall proceed from God and God will make his 
judgment to rest for a light to the people. And 
there's the rock, there's the vision. There's God, 
there's his law in his right hand, and his law is love, 
mercy, and truth, to be revealed by the Lamb. And when 
there's time no longer, this new covenant, the last 
part of the New Testament, is to be revealed for all of 
those who say they love Jesus. For all those who say 
they look to Christ for salvation, for the salvation of 
no other, there is one thing they're going to have to 
receive, that's going to bring them into unity, and 
that is the knowledge of the seven seals. Now, when I 
show you the first seal, that's where you will be. You 
will be in the light of the first seal, and there'll be 


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a lot of fences and a lot of liberties, meaning this: 

As you receive Christ Jesus, so walk ye in it, that's 
what Paul says. You do not know the fullness of what 
you're obtaining. So God's not going to place upon you 
any bands or any barrier. I'm not going to come to you 
and say all right, John, you can't smoke, you can't 
drink, you can't eat pork, you can't eat crawdad tails, 
you can't do this, you can't -- because, look, in this 
world of sin we live in, we are so bound to such strict 
requirements just to survive. The very few things that 
we do have, we cherish, and these are things that we 
thank God for. I mean, you've got to work what, five 
days or six days out of a week? 

JOHN: Work seven. 

DAVID KORESH : Seven . 

JOHN: Yeah. 

r 

j DAVID KORESH: All the time? 

JOHN: On the eighth day I rest. (Laughing.) 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. No, seriously, you 

never get weekends off? 

JOHN: Not on, not on these details. 

DAVID KORESH: I mean, but if you were like 

-- if you weren't having to mess with me -- 

JOHN: Oh, no, I meant regular --my regular 

schedule would be five days a week. 


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DAVID KORESH: Okay. Well, so, you know, 

someone that comes to you and says well, now, look, 
John, if you're going to serve God, you've got to work 
Saturday and Sunday at the church, right then and there 
you're not going to want that. 

JOHN: Well, I know some people that do that, 

you know. 

DAVID KORESH: But it may be by their own 

will . 

JOHN: Oh, yeah, they want to do it. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. But that's because they 

have received a greater light on it. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay, for instance, when 

someone comes to you and says John, that strawberry 
shortcake is going to make you sick one day, you need 

i 

to efat apples and oranges 

JOHN: You eat that till you get sick, then 

stop, right? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, okay. What I'm saying 

is, sometimes people have to be hurt by their sin, 
liberty to sin. 

JOHN: Yeah. That's what cures a lot of 

alcoholics. They've got to bottom out before they 
start to climb back up. 


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DAVID KORESH: That's what cures a lot of 

people who are very fanatic into health reform. They 
first have to get cancer or sick before they put away 
the smokes, put away the, the pork. I mean, you know, 

I don't see nothing wrong with eating pork -- the first 
time you get heart trouble, high cholesterol, what does 
the doctor take you off of? That's the extremely high 
-- you know, pork has high, high uric acid in it. I 
mean, it's one of the animals of creation that doesn't 
sweat, you know, it's got a sweat gland in its foot, 
you know? But besides that, it's just -- the doctors 
will tell you medically that pork, fatty meats are 
dangerous to your health. 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Okay. But -- 

JOHN: Well, you used to get trichinosis, 

too #i from pork. 

DAVID KORESH: Definitely. I mean -- 

JOHN: Some of the stuff you find in the 

Bible had a good medical or health reason, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: God's not stupid, especially 

not my God. So also in the wisdom of the seals. Now, 
there's going to be a people who in the latter days -- 
Joel says, are like no other people ever since the 
beginning of time. Christ promises the last shall be 


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first and the least shall be greatest. We saw what 
happened in the former reign, what happened to those 
who followed Christ 2,000 years ago. But what will be 
the reward of those who when there's time no longer can 
learn to learn the truth, never before known, and yet, 
all along hid within the scriptures of truth? The 
scriptures tell us that eye hath not seen nor heard nor 
ear heard, neither has entered into the minds of men 
what God has prepared for those who wait for him. So 
Christ is going to come soon, Christ is going to come 
soon, Christ is going to come soon. Wait a minute. 
Christ will not come and destroy an ignorant world when 
the churches themselves are ignorant. No, God will 
come and bring light first. The truth of the seals 
will be nothing less or nothing more than what they 
apply to be. So if you say Dave -- (indiscernible) 
they* better stop smoking -- no. You see, you don't 
have to do anything. All you -- 

JOHN: Do I have to give up sex? 

DAVID KORESH: No. 

JOHN: Okay. 

DAVID KORESH: Where in the Bible does it say 

to give up sex? 

JOHN: I don't think it says it anywhere. 


DAVID KORESH: Okay. So what you know is 


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what you've got to walk into. Now, when I begin to 
open the seals to you, you're going to see things 
that's going to make you say yeah, right, oh, man, yes, 
yes. Because in Christ the truth is what sets you 
free. Any requirement that is by law is going to bring 
wrath, Paul says. Anything that makes you have to give 
up what makes you what you are now, which, you know, 
you're working every day, you're working to be set 
free. You're working on the phone, being separated 
from your wife and your friends and your family, to try 
to get me to come to my senses, which is, you know, 
according to the world's standard, which is a very 
notable thing, you know, I, I, I commend you guys for 
that, you know, trying to bring us out safe 'cause you 
don't want us to be harmed. This is your job. 

But you're doing this so that you can find a 
place of service in the world, a place which you feel 
is moral and good and helping people and so you can 
make some bucks, because that's the way our society is 
set up, bo you can be free to go home and kick your 
heels up on the coffee table on the weekend, be with 
your wife, be with your kids, watch some TV, watch some 
cop and robbers movies or something like that, get some 
good ideas out of it. You know, this is your world. 

And now you're confronted with the people that -- this 


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• , 

is our world, too, but there's more to it. And we 
can't, we can't be here angry at people. The guys out 
here in the Bradleys, they don't know where we're 
coming from. I can't be here with the full knowledge 
of what I have and what I understand, and allow, and 
allow the ignorance of the world to, to, to, to bring 
it to the point of well, you dirty rotten dirty dogs -- 
no, on the contrary. You all don't know what we know 
and you don't even profess to. That's what I was 
telling John. 

Now, John's upset, you know, because, you 
know, sometimes I can be ornery. But if people don't 
hear me out in honesty, then all that is remaining is 
what it says -- that they shall see that which they've 
not heard and they shall consider that which have not 
been shown. I don't want anybody to be hurt. I don't 
want^ anyone here to be hurt, I don't want anyone on the 
outside to be hurt. And you're right, you know -- 

JOHN: Well, then why don't you come on out 

of there? You know, let's, let's -- 

DAVID KORESH: I want to every day, John. 

I'm just stuck between a reality of humanity and a 
reality of divinity. Remember -- 

JOHN: How about those people that are having 

some medical problems? I understand that Judy's finger 


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is a problem. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, I mean it's -- it's, 

it's not a problem any more. You're more than welcome 
to talk to her at any time. Remember, these people all 
answer for themselves. 

JOHN: Okay. I was thinking about maybe she 

needed some medical treatment. 

DAVID KORESH: Yeah. Well, you know, 

definitely she, you know, she's going to have to have 
her finger reset and everything, you know. 

JOHN: Well -- 

DAVID KORESH: I mean, I'm limping around 

now. I mean, you know, you know, I don't know if you 
saw where I got hit at, but -- 

JOHN: Yeah, I saw that video. 

DAVID KORESH: Did it look real or did it 

looks like it was imitation? 

JOHN: I didn't really give it that much -- I 

mean, it looked okay to me. 

DAVID KORESH: (Laughing) John, I'm really 

shot. 


JOHN: Yeah. I mean, that's no big deal. 

I've been shot, too, you know? 

DAVID KORESH: You're right. It, it, it -- 

JOHN: You know -- 


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DAVID KORESH: It feels good when it stops 

hurting. 

JOHN: Yeah, there you go. You know, I mean, 

you know 

DAVID KORESH: Where were you shot at? 

JOHN : Hmmm? 

DAVID KORESH: Where was you shot at? 

JOHN: Where? I was shot at a lot in Vietnam 
and I've been shot at in this job. 

DAVID KORESH: No, but did you ever get hit? 

JOHN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: Where 'd you get hit? 

JOHN: In the side. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh. 

JOHN: Actually, in the jacket. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh. Did it -- how far'd it go 

* 

thropgh? 

JOHN: All the way through. 

DAVID KORESH: Straight through your 

intestine and everything? 

JOHN: No, the jacket. The jacket. It went 

through the jacket. 

DAVID KORESH: Oh, I see, through your skin 

and through the jacket? 


JOHN: Yeah. God takes care of people like 


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me , you know . 

DAVID KORESH: Well, yeah, he's got to. 

JOHN: God takes care of fools, children -- 

let's see, fools, children and, and, and drunks. I'm 
not a drunk and I'm not a little kid, so, you know, 
I've just been very lucky. I 

DAVID KORESH: Well, John -- 

JOHN: -- lived through a lot of stuff 

overseas . 

DAVID KORESH: I appreciate you talking with 

me. And Steve definitely told the truth when he said 
that of all the guys that you were one of the most 
merciful and, and wise and -- 

JOHN: Well, I need a lot of help, you know, 

and you and Steve are the two guys that can provide it, 

you know, if we work on this thing together. I know I 

* 

soured like a broken record. 

DAVID KORESH: I know, we've got to come out. 

I realize that. 

JOHN: That's, that's inevitable, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: It's clear. 

JOHN: I mean, that's just, just as serious 

as -- 


DAVID KORESH: And I have -- 

JOHN: -- the sun's going to come out -- but 


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it's going to be overcast. 

DAVID KORESH : I have cried every night , 

saying look, Father, you know. I'll go out, I'll go 
out. You know, what, what -- I mean, you know, I know 
both aspects. I mean, I don't expect you to understand 
where I'm coming from because, you know, I, I know the 
visions. I, I know what we're looking at and I know 
the two avenues and, you know, I'm, I'm willing, 
because everything that I have done, you know, my work 
is finished. And the only remainder of that work is if 
at all possible, for those who have -- a lot of people 
have hurt me. There's a, there's a lot of people on 
the outside that, that believe this message. I know 
you're aware of that. I've been doing this since 1985. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: You knqj*? And, you know, we, 

we h^ad these -- we had this guy come in here recently 
that's, you know, his name's Jesse Amen. 

JOHN: Um -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: He came in, you know, and he 

told me that he had these thousands of people, you 
know. 

JOHN: The guy's a squirrel, right? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, the guy, the guy 

believed that he's a prophet and he had a message for 


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me . 

JOHN: He's a profit and loss, I think. 

DAVID KORESH : Huh? 

JOHN: He's a profit and loss, from what I 

hear. I think he's a squirrel. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, let me, let me say this 

much. I always try to find an avenue of peace. I deal 
with a lot of people, but, you know, he wanted me to 
put up this red banner to be a signal to, to rally up 
all these people, you know? And, like I say, you know, 
we're not living in the days of beards and long hair 
and stuff like that. You know, the people of God are 
to be all things to all men and to not be spectacles. 
That's hard to do today. You know, it's, it's hard to 
tell sometimes the saints from sinners because 
everybody has their style. But, like I said, you know, 
we, ye sell, you know --on the weekends, you know, we 
buy, we buy a lot of Army surplus stuff, right? 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: Buy it real cheap and sell it, 

you know, at the gun shows and stuff? 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And so we had a lot of 

fatigues and stuff. When he came here, he came with no 
shoes and he had -- his pants were muddy and all that. 


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So we 

JOHN : Gave him that Rambo look and sent him 

out? 

DAVID KORESH: No, no, no, no. 

JOHN: What? 

DAVID KORESH: No, we gave him some fatigues 

and stuff, you know, that were, you know, that were 
obtained down in Killeen. And, of course, you know, 
that's, that's basically what he was wearing and stuff 
like that 'cause, like, you know, I can buy, I can buy 
a pair of pants and a shirt from these guys. You know, 
they sell them after they leave the service. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And I can get those for like 

two bucks, two fifty. And, you know, you go to a new 
store and you'll pay, you'll pay 15 bucks for the pants 

t 

and J.5 bucks for the shirt. It's almost new condition. 
And, you know, the most I've ever paid is like four 
fifty for a pants and a shirt. And so, you know, we 
buy these and we sell these things, you know, and we 
give good deals on them and stuff. And so he was 
wearing that all the time that he was here. And the 
thing that he began to see was that we're not people 
here that just -- jumping around at what God tells us 
in our ears. I said look, before you came Jesse, 


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before I came, there was Moses, and what he had to say 
he wrote. And then there was Joshua. There was the 
Judges and there was Samuel and there was the prophets 
and there was Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekiel . You 
know, get in line, my friend. Get in line. If you've 
got something to say, let's hear those who came first. 
And, above all, here's God in the last book. God's the 
last one to talk and God don't say nothing. He gives 
his book to the Lamb and the Lamb has the last word, 
and there are seven seals, Jesse. And here you are to 
give me a revelation. You've got all these people on 
the outside that's ready to, to jump in and jump and, 
and, and, and retaliate and all. I said my friend, 
heaven's heaven. You know, God's in the saving 
business. You know, enough life's been lost as it is. 
There are seven seals. Are you here to show me the 

f 

sea3js, Jesse? If not, listen. So I began to show him, 
and he got really subdued, but he began to realize that 
the more he was learning the more he was off track in 
his own experience. 

JOHN: Do you know who his father is? 

DAVID KORESH: His father? 

JOHN: Yeah, Jesse's. 

DAVID KORESH: Uh-uh. 

JOHN: Lightning Bolt something. 


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DAVID KORESH: Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Lord God 

Lightning. 

JOHN: Yeah, I think, I think Jesse's a 

freaking nut, you know? 

DAVID KORESH: Well -- 

JOHN: They don't lock people up any more for 

that , you know . 

DAVID KORESH: Well, let me explain again. 

There's a lot of people in religion, people think God 
talks to them. Okay? And they get very zealous. And 
it's kind of like a fanatic. Now, I know this is 
applied to me, but hear me out. A fanatic is somebody 
who's lost sight of their goal and tried twice as hard 
to, to obtain it. Okay? 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I mean -- 

i JOHN: You know, I'm not condemning the guy 

for being nuts, you know. That's unfortunate. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, what, what's he doing 

now that's -- 

JOHN: I, I don't know if he's in the slammer 

or he's out. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, anyway, when he got 

ready, when he got ready to leave, you know, when he 
finally said that look, I've, I've learned more than I 


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can digest. He says, he says, you know, you've got 
your message from God and I've got my message. I gave 
my message, he says -- 

JOHN: His message is he ran out of 

Thorazine, I think. 

DAVID KORESH: Well, his message was is that 

when he came here --he found out we don't smoke pot 
and we don't do the things that, that he's accustomed 
to doing. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: So after a while, he began to, to 

hunger and thirst for his spiritual alignment. I said 
to him, I said Jesse -- see, I knew that when he went 
out -- I knew he wasn't going to be out on the road. 

So I told him, I said Jesse, you're free to come and 
go, but let me remind you one more time, and I gave him 

t 

a study on Isaiah 28, you know. And, you know, he 
can't, he can't deny the truth, you know. We treated 
him with the highest respect and, and we made sure 
that, you know, he wasn't around any, any of the, any 
of the arms and stuff like that, you know. And, like I 
said, we do everything we can to, to bring about peace. 
And so I finally said look, do me one favor as a 
brother. What's that? I says look, don't go out there 
in those Army fatigues. I said I've got something 


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* 

that's better. And then I bought him that suit, and so 
he came out in the suit. 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And -- 

JOHN: Probably was mistaken for an attorney, 

you know? 

DAVID KORESH: Now that was funny. 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I heard that someone mentioned 

that on the news. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: But attorneys don't wear hats 

like that. 

JOHN: There's a couple that wear just about 

thing. (Laughs) 

DAVID KORESH: You know? And I gave him, I 

t 

gave* him my new pair of boots, you know, that I won't 
need for a while, I don't think. 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: But at least, you know, like I 

say, when we try to find avenues for peace and 
understanding one another, you know, I didn't, I didn't 
tell him he was wrong or anything. I let him talk. He 
did most of all the talking in the beginning and he was 
the one that was, you know, going to do this great help 


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for us and that they see the oppression, all that. And 
I'm the one that tried to explain to him, look, these 
men out here are doing their job, and there's a lot of 
people out there that have attitudes. And, you know, 
we're subject to attitudes, but you've got to 
understand where we're coming from, Jesse. And, of 
course, you know, Lord God Lightning Amen was, was 
supposed to be the real winger-dinger, you know? 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And he began to say well, 

well, I know you're the Son and I know who the Father 
is, and my message to you is -- I said okay, now, look, 
if your message to me is this and my message from my 
God who sits on the throne is, and I repeated what I 
showed him already in the scriptures, then something 
doesn't harmonize here. I mean, you know, what I've 

f 

showed you thus far in the first seal, something 
doesn't harmonize. Am I supposed to go by your 
message? Or by what is in the seal? Well, brother, 
that's up to you. Well, I have to go by the weight of 
evidence and there's more prophets agreeing to the 
first seal than there is agreeing with you. 

So, you know, finally, after a while, he 
just, he just -- he couldn't hold on to his independent 
he -speaks- to-God-personally religion and be bombarded 


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every day with what's already written and what's 
already been pre-revealed. So he chose to leave, and 
he left in peace. But he left with, with peace and he 
left with respecting us and loving us and, and 
likewise. But I knew that it would be, it would be 
better because I knew that he -- I knew he would come 
to a rude awakening, that he wasn't just going to walk 
out of here and go back on the streets and go out and 
find his strength. You know? 

JOHN: Um-hum. It'll be a while before he 

gets any drugs probably, unless it's maintenance stuff, 
you know? 

DAVID KORESH: And that's, that's something 

that religion is never supposed to be involved in. 

It'B, it's condemned in the scriptures, you know, and 
so many people, young people today do that because 

t 

th^y, they consider their -- like I used to teach a lot 
of parents never to make this mistake. The fat lady is 
laying on the couch watching "All In the Family, " 
right? 

JOHN: Um-hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And she's sitting there and 

eating a lemon pie and munching on some Cheez-Its, and 
her son comes floating in and she goes what are you 
doing all those drugs again? You're out of your mind 


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-- are you on an illusion? He turns to her and he says 
Mom, look, I'm into my delusion, but here you are fat, 
laying on the, on the couch, watching -- living a life 
that's not real -- soap operas, you know how those are? 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: I mean, I've seen women who -- 

as a matter of fact I had an aunt one time that one day 
I walked in -- me and my cousin was out playing out at 
the farm and we walked in and she was on the telephone 
crying because someone had died, and she was crying, 
talking to her daughter. And come to find out -- I 
was, I was scared 'cause I thought she was talking 
about one of our relatives -- she was talking about 
somebody that died on the soap opera. 

JOHN: She needs to get a life. 

DAVID KORESH: No, seriously -- 

* 

i JOHN: I know, I know you're serious. You 

know, it's like those Trekkies, you know. 

DAVID KORESH: Um-hum. 

JOHN: They need to get a life. Even William 

Shatner said that. He said for crying out loud, you 
know, I appreciate your support, but go get a life, 
people. You know, 'cause they, they go thousands of 
miles to go to a Trekky convention. They need to, to 
get a life. 


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DAVID KORESH: But they think that is life. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: I mean that life -- the eye is 

made for seeing, the ear is made for hearing, the mind 
is made for perceiving. And that little, little box 
there that people worship every day, you know, has a 
far interesting life in that box than what they have to 
spin in just looking at the world. 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: But the keynote was is that 

this woman is there and she's living this unreal life 
and that's her drug. And she's sitting there eating a, 
a lemon pie that's imitation lemon, imitation meringue, 
imitation -- everything in it is, is biochemically 
structured -- aromatically, so to speak, to simulate 
the actual taste compositions of nature, but yet, it's 

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counterfeit . 

JOHN: Yeah. 

DAVID KORESH: You know, I mean, here this 

person is, is, is sensitizing a lemon that doesn't 
exist . 

JOHN: Urn- hum. 

DAVID KORESH: And the chemicals and carbons 


and, and, and, and by-products of that is, is 
destroying her and causing her body to produce inferior 


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cells, developing cancer, poison blood, bad brain 
cells, inability to reason and think properly. She's 
just dying a slow death. 

JOHN: It's, it's like being led astray by a 

false prophet. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly. Who promises peace 

and safety and love when there is none. Now, there is 
in this world today, a truth that to many is called the 
refreshing from the presence of the Lord. Peter talked 
about it in the end times. The Russian walls, the 
Communistic walls are breaking down, but a far more 
dangerous wall is being built up, for capitalization is 
only fluent if it be pushed and aided by a system 
that's as old as the Roman Empire which kept it from 
falling. Rome didn't fall, it converted. There's a 
difference . 

t 

i And unless men are inspired with the spirit, 

emancipated by the traditions of men, regulated by the 
unknown -- God is the unknown. The thought of 
hereafter, the question of death and what it holds for 
us has been the intriguing question of all those who've 
come and gone in this world. And it's the Christmas 
and it's the Easter and it's the Halloween that imparts 
to men the spirit of the world that tells us to spend 
and to buy and to give and to promote the good will of 


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39 

the tradition. And this is what boosts the economy, so 
that in the sorcery of buying and selling, 
merchandising, it's also highly -- most highly 
developed in the subject of Christianity. And you're 
right in regards to your question. Do good ministers 
have to be good salesmen? They're the best. But their 
product will not stand up in the judgment of truth. 
There's only one truth that the Apostle John said, this 
must be hereafter. And as long as this world steps 
over that testament, man will always be subject to the 
deceptions and cruelties and vanities of the minds of 
men. And, finally, it has to come to an end. Christ 
has forgiven and made intercession. 

JOHN: This, this does, too, Dave, you know? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, definitely. 

JOHN: This situation. 

•* DAVID KORESH: Definitely. Well, if both, 

both come to a hedge. By mercy -- 

JOHN: Hopefully, hopefully, peacefully. 

DAVID KORESH: Exactly, by all means. And, 

like I said, if you, if you will read Psalms 2, ask 
yourself who's the one that brings those bands and 
seals? They tell me they don't want to talk religion. 

I say look, this is a political matter. You are 
speaking in behalf of the United States of America and 


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bumps? 


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JOHN: Well, doesn't that give you goose 


DAVID KORESH: Well, no. Carnally -- well, I 

mean, you know, I was a Boy Scout, remember that. 

JOHN: I was a Marine officer, but this is -- 

that's even more of a thrilling statement. 

DAVID KORESH: Well -- 


JOHN: I don't know that, you know, 

nationally we're as reasonable as I'm trying to be. 

DAVID KORESH: I guess that's why a lot of 

techniques are -- like the, like the noise machines and 
all that. 


JOHN: They've got to go. That's not that 

reasonable, is it? 

DAVID KORESH: Well, no. 

i JOHN: But that's the reality of a situation 

like this. 


DAVID KORESH: Yeah, but the, the thing of it 

is, like I say, is -- 

JOHN: You know, we try to appeal to the, to 

the reasonable side of people in these situations, and 
then if, if they don't show that, then evidently 
unreasonable means are, are used, and you just talked 
about one. 


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DAVID KORESH: Yeah, but see, the thing of it 

is is that, you know, if we were not settled 
intelligently, decisively, in every position in regards 
to our necessity to serve the truth of God first, then 
we would be in that position of the cult where the cult 
has its beliefs and doctrines based upon theories of 
men. Well, it sounds good, yeah, I guess it's 
feasible, well -- And, of course, any time the theory 
is tested, especially at the risk of one's own safety 
or life, that's where cult awareness groups are so 
effective. You can de-program somebody who's based 
their life on a theory. 

JOHN: Yeah, but the word "cult" in and of 

itself is not, you know, a negative. You know, it's 
just a common occur -- 

DAVID KORESH: Well, what I'm saying is I'm 

t 

saying in the negative terminology. Like, like Jesse 
Amen, right? I mean, like the groups that, that 
believe in this God speaks to them and they're 
independent of any, any subject of, of, of scrutiny or 
-- you know, we're talking about a logical -- let's sit 
down and let's, let's open a book and let's not just 
listen to a theory. Let's, let's, let's compare 
scripture with scripture. Let's compare statement to 
statement. Let's first find out if the prophets 


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themselves were on base. I mean, if they don't agree 
amongst themselves perfectly, then, then who are they 
to tell us what to do? 

JOHN: Urn -hum. 

DAVID KORESH: You know, let's be logical 

about this, you know. Okay, so when that process is 
followed, then we say to ourselves well, okay, 
conclusively -- 
(End of Tape #219.) 


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